Take out a loan for your solar panels...

patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1762

joeltrout,

Yes, you understood correctly. My system should produce 120 KWHRS/month, minimum. Up to 150 KWHRS/month, but not year around, only in summer. If I figure 130 x 12 = 1560 KWHRS/ year, times 10 cents/HWHR = $156/year payback. Takes a long time to pay back $5,000+ system cost.

HOWEVER. If I only used 130 KWHRS/monthy, my rate would not be 10 cents, but around 20 cents/KWHR, since the minimum kicks in for me. I only get it for 10 cents now because I am all electric, and use 10x that amount, at best, usually about 1,600 to 2,400KWHRS/month.

It isn't feasible for me to buy a PV system that big, so I change to wood heat, gas cooking, reduce the sq. ft. of the house we use, super-insulate, add porches and a reflective roof and a summer kitchen to reduce cooling needs, buy super-efficient appliances, get rid of all the electric burger fryers, and put my machine shop on it's own meter. Then, change out the computer towers for laptops (24 watts vs 145 watts), and change all the lights to CFL's. Throw out the upright freezer, replace it with a very efficient chest type, and keep it full to reduce cycling, and move it to the cool basement where it doesn't work so hard. Then I have my usage down to a manageable level. I have accomplished most of that.

So. If I use 20 cents/KWHR as a realistic comparison, then the 1560 KWHRS/year I can produce is worth $312/year, divided into $5,000 = 16 year payback. I added in some money to pay for battery replacement in that period and get a 20 year payback, no interest values included. So,if rates double, It pays back in 10 years.

This makes no economic sense at all, in our current economic climate, right? My reasons for doing it are to provide a supply of energy that I can afford into retirement, and a reliable one, where I see the grid becoming unreliable. The economic alternatives of financial investments are getting more shaky each day. I've already bailed on our 401k's, etc.. My wife and I will start drawing SS as of the end of 2008. My GM pension is toast, along with one from another auto company. What conventional savings we have are in US Treasuries, and I'm not real happy with that. I have more faith in the future of my machine shop business, small though it is. And, I like the idea of being able to do things like buying 8 to 10 years worth of LP cooking gas NOW, at $1.99/gallon. I'm thinking that will pay me better than, say municipal bonds, the traditional haven of the retiree. Muni's are not what they used to be. The game for me is not return ON investment, but return OF investment. As goofy as the world of finance is today, I think I'd be a fool or less to loan money into that environment. If others choose to gamble on it, so be it, but not me.

I think what I described above illustrates the alternative energy cost situation fairly well. Life as we know it will change, dramatically, as energy costs rise, and alternatives will get more expensive as well. You will pay astronomically more money for a lot lower lifestyle. Of course there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat, but I believe my generalization will hold true.

Just a small sample of what I think "powerdown" really means. Alternatives are neither cheap, nor a direct substitute for what we use now.
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fletch_961 · Tar Sands Joined: Jan 31, 2008 Posts: 87

According to the sites payment calculator an $18,000 system would give you a monthly payment of $163 a month for 20 years. The 7.99% rate is a gimmick rate that you can "buy down" to for about $1500, so you are actually financing $19,500.

But after that your electric bill will be close to nothing. Just maintenance...and the grid connection fee....and new taxes to make up for the lost tax revenue from the electricity that in no longer being sold to you.

WisJim's numbers are pretty consistent with the following link:

Solar stuff

WisJim

Back in 1977 when we built our first house we went off grid because we found a 19355 vintage wind generator for a few hundred dollars, and got batteries, rebuilt the generator found a tower, etc. for a couple of thousand total, which was about the cost of having power lines brought in, but the electric coop would have also charged us a minimum bill for many years. Back then electricity was 3 cents a kwhr, now it is over 10 cents, but our initial wind generator installation paid for itself as soon as it was up and working, and our subsequent generator and PVs have also paid for themselves over the years in energy costs avoided. I look at it as paying my electric expenses up front, instead of a large monthly bill.

patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1762

WisJim,

Exactly! That's how we see it, and the up-front cost is known, while the future costs (sure to go up) are not known. That's very important to us for retirement.

joeltrout,

FWIW, My cost analysis is only projected numbers, while WisJim's are based on real world experience!
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Revi · Fusion Joined: Apr 25, 2005 Posts: 3537 Location: Maine

I think that solar hot water pays itself off much quicker. It pays back in around 5 years.

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/artlofving/Energysav/pages/fpanels_jpg.htm

PV is another matter. We have a backup light system that functions as a way to get around the house all the time, listen to the radio, charge cell phones and as an emergency electric system if we need it. It only cost around $1500.

I consider it money well spent.
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bromius · Heavy Crude Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 143

I went to the NY state fair yesterday, and spoke to a gentleman who was selling a solar hot water heating system. What he said confirmed what was said earlier here, that solar hot water has the best rate of return among alternative energy technologies. He was saying that with his system it would cost about 1800 dollars for a unit that would support a family of 4. I don't know if this included home heating, but I doubt it. How do those numbers sound to any of you here who've got actual experience with solar hot water systems? (I wish I'd gotten more specs but my date looked like she was getting impatient...)

kpeavey · Expert Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 1323

A couple grand for a solar hot water system is in the ballpark. No way that would include space heating. Compared to an electric hot water heater for $200 the thing is expensive. It's not the cost of the equipment, its the cost of running the equipment that is expensive.

I live in north Florida, lots of sun and warm weather. I put together a rudimentary hot water system for about a hundred bucks. Tubing, hose and some plumbing. As long as the sun is shining, I have hot water. There is no tank yet, when the sun goes down, the hot water goes with it. I've been using this system for 4 years. Running the hot water heater used to cost me about $18/month. Simple math says $864 was removed from the light bill. This does not include rate increases and fuel surcharges.

How would you rate that investment?
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vilemerchant · Heavy Crude Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 122

Being a renter a proper system is not feasible for us, but I am seriously thinking about some kind of portable setup as an emergency backup. Something that could run a computer and a few lights, charge cell phones etc in case of grid failure.

patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1762

vilemerchant,

Harbor Freight has a set of three 15 watt panels, total 45 watts, with a cheapie stand to sit 'em on (it needs help), two 12 volt CFL lights, and a cheapie charge controller/distribution box, for under $200. All you need is a deep cycle 12 volt battery to get going. It's more or less portable, and the 3 panels assembled are about 3 feet x 3 feet. The control box thingie has a voltmeter, a low voltage led indicator, and outlets for 12v. phone jack, 3v., 6v., and 9v. mini jacks, plus a cigarrete lighter socket. There is also a 5volt flat socket that may be for cell phones on it. Even has cables to go to the battery, and from panels to the box, and directions for hookup.
The RV camping area at WalMart has 12 volt cig. plugs and sockets, adapters, etc.. I found a 12 volt DC to DC converter at laptopsforless (?) online that makes 12 vdc into 19 vdc which my laptop wants. (50 bucks).

After removing the battery in my laptop, it draws about 25 watts. This rig runs my Acer Travelmate (low power draw) quite well, and if you don't stay online all the time, it will run the lights, too. They are only 5 watt CFL's, but that equates to about 25 watts incandescent. Plenty to get around the house. The lights plug into the 12 volt phone jacks on the box.

Sounds to me like it might be just what you want, and it's pretty cheap. No idea how good this rig is long term, but I plugged it up and it's working for me.

Added: Take a look at those $130 yellow batteries at Sam's Club. Can't think of the name, but good reputation. Maybe someone can help with the name. I think they are gel cells, which would be good for indoor use, but still should be ventilated. Regular car battery will die comparatively fast in this usage, but it's better than nothing. (My 2 cheap 12 v car batteries in parallel have been going for a couple years now.)

edit: (Again.) My conventional computer tower and HP flat screen monitor draws about 140 watts, so that's a bit much for this setup on any extended use basis.
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vilemerchant · Heavy Crude Joined: Jul 07, 2008 Posts: 122

Thanks for that information patience. It actually sounds like just the thing I want, problem is I live in Australia so I'll have to find a local equivalent.

bromius · Heavy Crude Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 143

patience · Expert Joined: Jan 04, 2008 Posts: 1762

vilemerchant,

Sorry, my ignorance here! However, the thing I described is a direct Chinese import, so maybe there is a chance it is imported in Australia? Ah, well. Best wishes on finding something.
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Bella · Tar Sands Joined: May 25, 2008 Posts: 26

[quote="patience"]vilemerchant,

Harbor Freight has a set of three 15 watt panels, total 45 watts, with a cheapie stand to sit 'em on (it needs help), two 12 volt CFL lights, and a cheapie charge controller/distribution box, for under $200.
This is all well and good ...except that it is Harbor Freight!
I plan to never purchase another thing from Harbor Freight because of the mizerable time they gave me when I purchased a towable trencher from them.
#1 I paid with a cashiers check (good instantly from any bank because it isn't a personal check, it is drawn on Bank funds) they held it for 90 days before shipping.
#2 I paid the "overweight shipping" fee but discovered it would cost an extra $125 to have it shipped on a truck with a lift gate so I could get it off the truck.
#3 The control valve group didn't function, and getting another via the warrantee took another month.(cheap chinese crap).
Never again! When a busness screws up repeatedly one has no choice but to stop doing busness with 'em. As far as getting panels mail order I suggest Northern tool, they are a little more concerned about their customer base.
Ihave been experimentinting with PVs, I think I'm going to build a towable solar power unit that I can charge my EV's with first, then I will work up to putting solar power to the barn before I do the house. No, I do not plan to take out a loan to do it, easy steps, small moves sport! Bella