Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
For me it looks like a slow crash. I read this forum for a year now, the fundamentals were the same but our real lives are still pretty much the same for most of us.
Crude has doubled but all what I hear is that you have to fill up on Wednesday because this is the cheapest day. People don't drive less, at least in Australia. No one sells milk in reusable bottles, birthday partys are with plastic dishes...
Well for me I enjoy live, our family and we don't want to die.
The question is what everyone understand with " fast crash". For some of us a fast crash could be an event like the great depression others think of a total collapse of our society.
For me; i think that an second great depression is inevitable to safe us, if this is still possible. I guess our people would stand together and fight all this through.
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
A large methane burp from the warming environment might very well cause a "quick crash" that would remove both us and pretty much all of the complex life forms on the planet .. and that could happen either because of injudicious use of dirtier carbon fuels from a response to peak oil or even before we get to that point. Some feel
we have already passed that tipping point. I suspect if such happens we will hardly have time to say our goodbyes.
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
Sellis1012 wrote:
Quote:
you are aware that the chances of you surviving a sudden collapse are pretty small, right?
quick is probably best for both the environment and anyone who comes through to the other side. i think that it'll be a long long grind to who knows where--maybe the bottom, maybe not.
As I have said elswhere, the real tragedy in a sudden collapse won't be in the dying, it will be in the living. And a theme in this thread that seems to be unfolding is that we are all going to die. Our lives are but a vapor. Here one second, gone the next. 1.3 trillion people have walked the face of the earth. How many can you name?
i sense a lot of people here dealing w/death in a very abstract manner.
having seen death first hand down and dirty, i can tell you that it isn't pretty, quite, peaceful, romantic or any such thing. it's disgusting, painful, heartbreaking, and you WILL fight to survive, even for another miserable second, with everything you have. and you're right, the people left behind suffer greatly.
believe me, it makes a huge difference whether you die in the next second, as you put it, or thirty years from now--a huge difference. your life isn't vapor; it's a very real and very precious thing.
lastly, a long, slow grind downhill doesn't necessarily have to be worse than a sudden crash. there might just be light at the end of the tunnel for modern civilization--or at least that's my hope, since i don't think you'll get your wish of a catastrophic failure.
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 1642 Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
Sellis1012 wrote:
Am I wrong? I want PO to happen. It is like somebody is holding a gun to my head. I want them to shoot already!!! I don't think I can endure a slow, painful descent. I want all the cards on the table. No more BS. No more lying. No more of Bush saying we don't have any problems! And I'm a Republican!!! Let's get on with it already! What's wrong with me? I hate when the stock market has a good day, I hate when the price of oil goes down, I hate, I hate, I HATE that we are handing money out to every jackass company that lived high on the hog and is now running to Uncle Sam for a bail out!
I HATE THAT!!!!!!
So you're getting real excited for getting that pink slip from work. And then moving back in with your parents. And then not having enough money to pay for your car and internet subscription. And then you find you can't get another job except cleaning up toilets. And then your wife leaves you because she can't take the financial stress and moves back in with her family. And then your house gets robbed by some kids who live just down the street. And then you have to move to another city because the county government has gone bankrupt and businesses have all closed up. And then you move somewhere where you can trade 12 hour physical labor work days for crappy food and shelter...for the rest of your life...
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
thuja wrote:
So you're getting real excited for getting that pink slip from work. And then moving back in with your parents. And then not having enough money to pay for your car and internet subscription. And then you find you can't get another job except cleaning up toilets. And then your wife leaves you because she can't take the financial stress and moves back in with her family. And then your house gets robbed by some kids who live just down the street. And then you have to move to another city because the county government has gone bankrupt and businesses have all closed up. And then you move somewhere where you can trade 12 hour physical labor work days for crappy food and shelter...for the rest of your life...
That's what you're all hopped up about?
No I do not think this is what the OP was saying. Nobody really wants to see their own lives destroyed. The thing is, it is stressful in its own way WAITING for the Hammer to Fall. I am glad I only joined this board a short time ago, I cannot imagine the stress people have been under here who have been laboring under this cloud for YEARS now. When will it HAPPEN? The old timers are the ones ho MOST see the spin down as eccentric and catastrophic, this because they have been discussing end game scenarios so long they actaully want to see the predictions fulfilled at this point.
Thing is, NOBODY here, not MonteQuest, not BigTex, not MrBill can REALY tell you WHEN TSWHTF, nor can they EITHER tell you how that will play itself out when/if it will happen. Each person here has a spin on this, but the longer it goes the more invested each one becomes in their version of the end game. Lots of smart folks looking at these questions, but about all of them have egg on their faces regularly as it just seemingly takes FOREVER for it to actually unwind itself.
Anyhow, I'll make my latest bet for Tax Time next year. I do not see how the government ill fund itself with so many out of work and so many businesses bankrupt and so many properties in foreclosure.
Never know though, those Plucky Guys at the Fed and the US Treasury may have a new Bad Aid to put on even then.
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
When do you have tax time?
At least for the US economy I wait for two events: After the olympics (now) if the Chinese do something nasty, and after the election, maybe after Christmas. But this is speculation.
Maybe we will win something, like more community feeling or less kids on drugs.
I don't think that these guys really want to be dead or see the suffering in a rosy light, but you have to deal with the outlook somehow.
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 607 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:54 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
I'm anticipating enjoying the die-off, and I'd prefer a fast one: several months to a maximum of five years, 'cause five years is how long I can hold out at the house in isolation. I'm very "out of sight and out of the way." I have guns and ammo. I want the whammy, and I want it schnappy. One day I'll hike into Hillsboro to see if there were any other survivors. What do I expect to find?
Human bones! Here, a fellow and his wife ate their kids, then he ate her, then he got injured in a fall and a dog ate him. There, neighboring families fought it out for possession of the pantry contents of one of them, with the result that the attacking party won and, look! There's still somebody in their house, peaking out through the curtains. I show him my .357, in case he has confused me with an esculent comestible. A few houses have been burned down, presumably with their owners still inside them, because the attacker was frustrated in his attempt to steal food.
After my look around town, I return home (taking the woodland route rather than following the highway). I chuckle about the foolishness of people who trust other people, even to the extent of permitting their proximity. Then I take another fantasy novel from the library, go out on my porch, and start reading.
In fact, though, things in Hillsboro need not get so bad as this. Pocahontas County WV can feed itself, if the farm owners are willing to grow for local consumption, instead of for sale abroad. My experience with them, however, is such that I doubt they'll make a change in what they grow just because their neighbors will die if they don't.
So in the beginning, those farmers will be in the position I'd be in, if I were more exposed to neighbors and passersby: initially having the support of the law (probably in exchange for a few agricultural concessions to the families of the police & sheriff), but eventually being removed from the picture by non-farming folks who dispute the wisdom of their priorities.
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
alokin,
Taxes is the US are due April 15.
Jenab6, Sounds like you just want vindication of your views. In any case, if you truly look forward to the situation you describe, you are indeed a disturbed individual. Need to figure out where all that hate comes from and deal with it. Hate consumes the vessel that carries it.
Even a fast crash would be a lot slower than we might think. Our society has a lot of momentum, I'm thinking. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
I love this thread and the gun thread. People have watched way too many Rambo movies to think they can survive this type of scenario.
Have you ever faced a mob? Or a gang of well armed men.?
Or a professional like me? There are too many ways to get to you as I have the patience of job. DONT step outside day or night? How long can you last?
If your house is set on fire, how long will you last. TO talk about post peak oil in that type of scenario is foolishness. The only way to survive in those kinds of situations is to band together against the mobs and roving gangs.
You might kill a few no doubt but will only delay the inevitable. You have read way too many books. And seen too many goofey movies. I have been in the real deal and you cant survive long alone
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
Sellis1012 wrote:
MD wrote:
Sellis1012 wrote:
... I want PO to happen. It is like somebody is holding a gun to my head. I want them to shoot already!!! I don't think I can endure a slow, painful descent.
You are definitely confused. The "Peak Oil" you are looking for doesn't exist. "Peak Oil" is not some apocalyptic event, it's just the peak of oil production. It will likely play out over many years.
Do you really think this apocalyptic event you so desire will release you from your hatred of life? I've got news for you my friend, you haven't a clue. You should seek counseling.
Thank you for being a voice of reason in a sea of doom. My original post has everything to do with the anticipation of PO the economic event, not peak oil, the definition. Nowhere should you be reading between the lines that I hate my life. My post was triggered by spending the day helping a family. They had a big house, he got laid off. The house got foreclosed on. They moved into an apartment and he took the only job he could find that wouldn't require his wife quitting her job at IAMs and his son switching schools. The job was 45 minutes away. Then gas prices went up, and now they are getting evicted from their apartment. He has taken a job as a manager at Burger King. So, PO the event is beginning. The peak oil I am looking for exists. And yes, it is going to be slow and painful. Call me sick, but I just would rather get it over with. You surprise me. You've been on the boards since 2005 and yet your response was so incredibly ignorant.
Being down on your luck can happen to all of us no matter what. If that family was down on their luck after this "great collapse" you are wishing for, they'd probably be dead. As it is, they have a chance to rebuild somewhere else.
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
joelcolorado wrote:
I love this thread and the gun thread. People have watched way too many Rambo movies to think they can survive this type of scenario.
Have you ever faced a mob? Or a gang of well armed men.?
Or a professional like me? There are too many ways to get to you as I have the patience of job. DONT step outside day or night? How long can you last?
If your house is set on fire, how long will you last. TO talk about post peak oil in that type of scenario is foolishness. The only way to survive in those kinds of situations is to band together against the mobs and roving gangs.
You might kill a few no doubt but will only delay the inevitable. You have read way too many books. And seen too many goofey movies. I have been in the real deal and you cant survive long alone
I clearly don't have any personal experience but I agree 100% that the "buy ammo" for post-peak "survival" talk around here is pure fantasy for middle-aged men looking for excitement.
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
Why would anyone with a family WANT this to happen sooner than later? Later is better as there is a chance that we can overcome the obstacles. THINK here.
Can you face seeing your kids starve? You need to regroup and not give in so easily to the fearmongering. I have lived in some impossible situations and men around me gave up but there were always enough of us who would not give up that pulled it thru.
Be part of the solution and not part of the mob. Be strong, be a real man and stand tall in these days. We need leaders now more than ever.
I drive 100 miles to work and 100 miles home. Using our old cavalier which gets 40 mpg and just surviving. Facing disability but I will NOT give up. NO WAY.
I only wish I could get with some of you and really chat and live for a week or so and show you just WHAT you are really capable of. You dont know it until faced with it and then it changes you forever. Have seen impossible situations overcome by sheer willpower. Man has this innate ability to rise to the occasion and overcome in the face and in spite of difficulties. Damn I like that about ppl.
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
Very interesting to see everyone’s take on the Sellis statement. No right or wrong answers IMO…just different perspectives. I’ll toss in my particular best case scenario: have some akin to an artificial PO smack us right between the eyes. Doesn’t so matter what the source: a “short” war with Iran or the Mother of all Hurricanes hitting the GOM. Something that would cause empty gas stations, long black outs hitting folks that have never seen one before, airline flights rationed, etc. Something that will absolutely get the PO dilemma across but not so severe that we can’t recover and start addressing the problem AS A COUNTRY.
The conversation reminds me of a theory offered long ago with regards to the Pacific theater of WWII. It goes like this: instead of Japan hitting Pearl Harbor they left us alone and just kept marching across Asia. Not unlike Hitler moving across Europe. After several years of amassing resources the Japanese would have been a much different opponent then they were on 8 Dec. In this theory, the US was lucky they attacked us when they did. It provided the incentive to ramp up. For those not too familiar with pre-WWII US attitudes you should know that a very large portion of the population opposed going to war to save Europe (including England) and had even less interest in saving Asia from Japan. Thus my silly best case scenario: a PH type event which we survive, for the most part, but also forces the issue while there may still be sometime for positive actions.
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
joelcolorado wrote:
Why would anyone with a family WANT this to happen sooner than later? Later is better as there is a chance that we can overcome the obstacles. THINK here.
Thinking is a skill of balancing analytical and holistic modes of thought in tune with feelings. By thinking it becomes clear, that as my cells are part of me, I'm part of a larger irreducible whole, a family, this family is part of a larger whole etc. etc., and all these parts and whole form a complex web of interdependencies, including strong tendencies called "causalities".
By thinking and feeling deeply holistically these complexities, it becomes possible to arrive at few simple analytical truths of prime importance to be applied consistenty to all thought. Such as that a system (e.g. "modernity") that at increasing pace destroys the basis of its continuity is not a very healthy and wise.
As for timing of events of processes, it is not for us to decide, just to adopt. That said, it is not hard to see - and accept - that US empire is about to collapse in few years, much worse than Soviet empire did, and much of the global capitalistic system will follow suit by various degrees, which is necessary for the overall health of the planet and hopefully enough to convince humanity that a truly radical change is needed to keep adopting.
This means that the "obstacle" is not somewhere out there to be overcome by some technofix, but the obstacle is this very system of which we are all still dependent from, at least by some degree - the obstacle is us.
As for "sooner or later", e.g. grace period of four years until the poetic 2012 seems not too much to ask before the hardships start to become too overbearing to start adopting (learning usefull skills, change of basic attitude etc.), it's not too soon from a small part's perspective and hopefully not too late for the planet, so I would say it's modest and appropriate wish.
Quote:
Can you face seeing your kids starve?
Sadly, it's not an unthinkable scenario. If that should happen, it's God's will. Of course I'm doing what is in my power to face my responsibilities and to push the odds by going back to school and studying to become a professional gardener, but I'm not under any illusions that I can offer any guarantees of eternal security to anyone, not even my children. All I can do is my small modest part and accept and love the world the way it happens.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4867 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Re: I want it to happen
This thread makes ya all sound like a bunch of wack-jobs....... an Golem the only one who makes any sense at all. _________________ Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
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