Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1770 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
You may note that despite of atrocities of WW II Britain did not resort to use of Anthrax against German cities
No, they just dropped massive numbers of incendiaries on German cities with the intention of creating fire storms. Probably one of the top ten greatest atrocities of the 20th century. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Cid_Yama wrote:
Is WWIII finally here, and only because Bush was embarrassed and won't let it go? Are we all going to die a horrible death just because Bush can't bear Russia winning this minor conflict?
I would say, it is unlikely. Maybe few nukes will be fired, but not more than that. You are not going to die and we will still have Cid Yama posting on this forum next year and so on.
Meantime few iron curtains will be unrolled but also Bush and his neo-cone friends will end up in dustbin of history. They have successfully destroyed American hegemony in XXI century world and so their mission is accomplished.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Cid_Yama wrote:
You may note that despite of atrocities of WW II Britain did not resort to use of Anthrax against German cities
No, they just dropped massive numbers of incendiaries on German cities with the intention of creating fire storms. Probably one of the top ten greatest atrocities of the 20th century.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1770 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Maybe few nukes will be fired, but not more than that.
If the NATO ships in the Gulf start firing cruise missiles, one nuke will take them all out, demonstrating the end of the era of naval fleets for power projection.
Unfortunately, nuclear escalation will proceed apace. Your optimism about a limited nuclear engagement are unwarranted. Escalation will be the name of the game. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1770 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Moscow says NATO begins supplying new arms to Georgia
NATO countries are starting new arms deliveries to Georgia, the Russian foreign minister said Tuesday.
Sergei Lavrov accused those who were supporting the Georgian leadership, which started the hostilities in South Ossetia, of being "cynical and hypocritical."
"According to our information, they are even starting to supply new types of weapons, restoring the military infrastructure that was used in the aggression," he said.
Lavrov said Georgian President Mikheil Saakashivli had received promises that "NATO will defend him" and "rearm his regime."
Asked precisely which countries were currently rearming Georgia, the Russian minister said: "Virtually all states that are supplying arms to Georgia are NATO member countries."
He said Saakashvili's "foreign sponsors" had played an extremely "destructive" role in providing him with offensive weapons prior to the armed confrontation with Georgia's breakaway provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
He stressed that all such supplies were at odds with OSCE and EU rules and regulations.
"These weapons, which were supplied to Georgia both overtly and covertly, were eventually used against Russian citizens," Lavrov said.
He added that Russian warships would patrol the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea, "as well as other parts of the world's oceans," on a regular basis. link _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Cid_Yama wrote:
Maybe few nukes will be fired, but not more than that. If the NATO ships in the Gulf start firing cruise missiles, one nuke will take them all out, demonstrating the end of the era of naval fleets for power projection. Unfortunately, nuclear escalation will proceed apace. Your optimism about a limited nuclear engagement are unwarranted. Escalation will be the name of the game.
May be my optimism is not warranted, but outright doomerism in that respect (eg. few nukes fired means certain escalation to total nuclear Armageddon) is unwarranted too.
I suspect that atomic war by proxy followed by iron curtains lasting until all modern world dissipate for natural causes is a quite sensible scenario [if NATO clash with Russia over Caucasus].
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1770 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Escalate to where and by whom?
This has gone beyond regional. We are looking at a NATO-Russia shooting war on the horizon. Also, don't forget the SCO. We will quickly see nations taking up sides, and nations like the Ukraine spliting internally allong alliance lines.
History shows how quickly these things polarize, where implicit alliances become explicit.
Once that happens, we find ourselves in a world war. One divided along ideological lines, that will not turn off until one or both sides are crushed.
Heck, they are even discussing it on CNBC.
My only hope is that Europe's energy dependence on Russia will trump their allegiance to NATO.
If US allies do not back down, forcing the US to do so as well, it is becoming increasingly apparent we are going to find ourselves in a military confrontation. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Cid_Yama wrote:
Escalate to where and by whom? This has gone beyond regional. We are looking at a NATO-Russia shooting war on the horizon. Also, don't forget the SCO. We will quickly see nations taking up sides, and nations like the Ukraine spliting internally allong alliance lines.
Will the West Europeans or the Americans risk their own necks for their new found Eastern buddies? Or they just want each other to do it?
Today they are enjoying unprecedented wealth and tomorrow they are ready to die?
It would be much safer for both sides to just keep shelling countries between Russia and West Europe and claim their victory.
Last edited by gmin on Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1625 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Nickel, Please check some facts before writing silly-wily. WWII started with German invasion of Poland on 1st September 1939 followed by Russian invasion of Poland 2 weeks later.
When I said "WWII started off with Germany and Britain targetting each other's military installations", I didn't mean that's what instigated the war; I meant that that was the character of their engagement initially. Sorry I actually have to explain that to you, but there it is.
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
You may note that despite of atrocities of WW II Britain did not resort to use of Anthrax against German cities and also Germany did not deploy chemical weapons on the battlefield.
You're talking about using extraordinary weapons, not restraining their use. What do you suppose would have happened if Churchill had gone ahead with his plan to use anthrax, or if Germany had gas-shelled Britain? Do you suppose the other side would have just shrugged and said "one for them, I guess"? No, they would have responded in kind. Just as they did when civilian targets wound up being bombed.
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Comparable target would be nuked by adversary (victim of initial attack) as a warning about what might happen if situation escalate further.
And you actually believe it would stop there, do you? All the families, friends, and countrymen of the people in the second city would just agree it was all even up now, no need to retaliate for THEIR loss, THEIR sorrow, THEIR grief and anger? If so, well... as I recall, the British attacked German civilian targets first, whether by accident or design, and the Germans responded. If your thesis were correct, that should have been the end of it. But of course, it was not. The British wanted to strike back, regardless of who started it. And the Germans wanted to avenge THOSE attacks. And on and on it went for four or five years, with civilians in the cross hairs. What become of reason? Restraint? Equity? They disappeared in a haze of hatred, pain, and anger. And so they will the moment the first nuke is used. There will be an ever-increasing need to strike back, return some of that hurt to the other side. And it won't stop. Not while anyone's in a position to launch another.
The only way to ensure it doesn't happen is to treat it just like anthrax, just like gas, and no one use it first. First use is all use. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Last edited by Nickel on Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Nickel wrote:
gmin wrote:
Cid_Yama wrote:
Escalation will be the name of the game.
Escalate to where and by whom? There are plenty of West Germanies for Russia to attack but no East Germany for US to retaliate on.
Where'd you get the idea the Germans are the only targets??
i was referring to an earlier post by EnergyUnlimited where he said
"Do you remember old fashioned concept of restricted atomic war in Europe?
As per that scenario it was accepted that Russian units in East Germany would nuke NATO targets in West Germany and in retaliation NATO would nuke Russian (or Warsaw pact's) installations in East Germany. "
my point is that when Russia hit Georgia or any other stooge, the West cannot retaliate in kind because there are few targets outside Russia. That puts the burden to escalate, i.e. to commit suicide, onto the West.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1770 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Will the West Europeans or the Americans risk their own necks for their new found Eastern buddies?
This has nothing to do with Georgia anymore. This is evolving into a confrontation between global power blocs.
This is the energy war that everyone expected sooner or later as a result of Peak Oil.
Russia is now the largest energy producer in the world, set to gain dominance in the world as a result of this.
US and NATO's 3 major European members, Great Britain, France and Germany, represent the current powers that be, accustomed to running the planet for their own ends.
This power is under threat due to peak energy and who controls those resources.
This is the ultimate power struggle and the confrontation appears to be upon us.
Georgia just demonstrated the fantasy of the pipeline strategy bypassing Russian control.
Europe is now being forced to recognize that Russia's control of the oil and gas means Russia is in the position of dominance over Europe.
This is unacceptable to the current powers that be, as it represents the end of their world.
Russia's snubbing of NATO and WTO membership sent a very clear message. Russia is not willing to join the current powers that be as a junior partner.
Russia has recognized they currently hold the reigns of power and have no need for the current, about to be former, powers that be. _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
It riles them to believe that you perceive the webs they weave. - Moody Blues
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:04 pm; edited 3 times in total
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Cid_Yama wrote:
Will the West Europeans or the Americans risk their own necks for their new found Eastern buddies?
This has nothing to do with Georgia anymore. This is evolving into a confrontation between global power blocs.
This is the energy war that everyone expected sooner or later as a result of Peak Oil.
Russia is now the largest energy producer in the world, set to gain dominance in the world as a result of this.
US and NATO's 3 major European members, Great Britain, France and Germany, represent the current powers that be, accustomed to running the planet for their own ends.
This power is under threat due to peak energy and who controls those resources.
This is the ultimate power struggle and the confrontation appears to be upon us.
I think it's best for German and France to quit NATO and become the swing power.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Cold War heats up with a vengence
Nickel wrote:
When I said "WWII started off with Germany and Britain targetting each other's military installations", I didn't mean that's what instigated the war; I meant that that was the character of their engagement initially. Sorry I actually have to explain that to you, but there it is.
WWII was a war which started with German invasion of Poland.
Your theory of beginning of WW II is a silly-wily. Do you wont to make online vote of this issue on this forum to get opinion of others about these facts?
If so then make a poll (or I will, if you wish so). Questions would go as follows:
1. Did WWII started as a war between Germany and Britain?
2. Did WW II started by German invasion of Poland?
NB. I accept that circumstances of beginning of WWII are not a part of critical historical knowledge of Canadians.
Quote:
You're talking about using extraordinary weapons, not restraining their use. What do you suppose would have happened if Churchill had gone ahead with his plan to use anthrax, or if Germany had gas-shelled Britain? Do you suppose the other side would have just shrugged and said "one for them, I guess"? No, they would have responded in kind. Just as they did when civilian targets wound up being bombed.
I don't know what they would do, but German certainly did not respond to firestorms in Dresden mentioned by Cid before. They knew possible consequences.
Quote:
And you actually believe it would stop there, do you? All the families, friends, and countrymen of the people in the second city would just agree it was all even up now, no need to retaliate for THEIR loss, THEIR sorrow, THEIR grief and anger? If so, well... as I recall, the British attacked German civilian targets first, whether by accident or design, and the Germans responded. If your thesis were correct, that should have been the end of it. But of course, it was not. The British wanted to strike back, regardless of who started it. And the Germans wanted to avenge THOSE attacks. And on and on it went for four or five years, with civilians in the cross hairs. What become of reason? Restraint? Equity? They disappeared in a haze of hatred, pain, and anger. And so they will the moment the first nuke is used. There will be an ever-increasing need to strike back, return some of that hurt to the other side. And it won't stop. Not while anyone's in a position to launch another.
Moaning and whining of hurting families is unimportant. TPTB are not taking much account of these, unless it help to pursue their proposed policy. Wake up.
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