Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
Good news indeed, but we do not need more immigrants to save our economic system. If a country does not have the workforce to expand production then I call this tough crap.
By the way, I get a little nervous reading the word "fertility". Total bull crap since it has nothing to do with the ability to get children but more about irresponsible behavior of folks that screw too much, not giving a damn about the consequences.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 826 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
Lorenzo
Your logic fails repeated. You mention the need for 500,000 immigrants. Anywhere, anyhow do you see that few immigrants moving in. In the US 10% of Mexico has crossed the border, of a population of 100 million 10 million are here. I dearly love Mexican culture, Mexican food and many trips to Mexico, but I can't feed them all. Back off on your Prozac dose.
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:44 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
Besides, if you really wanted population reduction in rich countries and economic development in countries with high fertility rates, you'd say that poor countries should open up nursing homes and rich countries should ship the old folks off. You'd get even greater population reduction in the rich countries, and even more economic development in the poor. The best way to do this would be to stop all immigration thus causing a shortage of nurses in the rich country, and a market in the poor for nursing homes. The poor countries wouldn't have to worry about their culture being overrun since the people moving there aren't having any kids and are going to be gone soon. _________________ One of these now am I too, a fugitive from the gods and a wanderer, at the mercy of raging Strife.
--Empedocles
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1850 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
lorenzo wrote:
We will need many immigrants to sustain our economy.
Forget the economy. There's no way to sustain it. You must know this by now. Don't you?
If you want something to sustain, try sustaining the carrying capacity of your continent. That will be challenging enough. Encouraging immigration definitely will not help. You're not talking sense. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
mos6507 wrote:
TreebeardsUncle wrote:
Russia's population will as well and already has. And to heck with their economies. Just want there to be fewer people out there crapping up the world.
g
Amen. Having too few people around is a problem the world should be able to deal with. Too many is what we have to worry about.
Too many Americans, is what we have to worry about. They consume more energy, eat (and throw away) more food, and generally muck about in other peoples business far too much. If we got rid of one American, we could feed 26 or so Somalians. So in order to minimize the number of people that need to go, we'd be better off minimizing the number of Americans..
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
iogan wrote:
Too many Americans, is what we have to worry about. They consume more energy, eat (and throw away) more food, and generally muck about in other peoples business far too much. If we got rid of one American, we could feed 26 or so Somalians. So in order to minimize the number of people that need to go, we'd be better off minimizing the number of Americans..
I'd rather get rid of the 26 somalians, especially if they live in america or europe...
Joined: Jul 04, 2008 Posts: 242 Location: Europe: European Historian
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
coyote wrote:
iogan wrote:
we'd be better off minimizing the number of Americans..
I'll go for that.
I'm sick of feeding these people also! Let mother nature take care of them they way it always has.
One thing I'll be glad about peak oil is...the bleeding hearts will be in breadlines the same..maybe then they can shut the F*ck up.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1850 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
No, that's not the way I feel about it. A lot of people might consider me a bleeding heart. I don't like seeing people or animals suffer, and if I could I'd put a stop to it. I know that I lucked into a position of wealth and leisure, compared with most of the world. Considering how few people enjoy the privileges I do, and the difference it's made to my levels of misery and happiness, being born middle class in the First World is pretty much like winning the lottery. Better than that. For all the hard times I've been through, I'm still one lucky son of a bitch, and I know it. Feeling negatively about helping those less fortunate would imply a philosophy that does not acknowledge my awareness of my own good fortune.
In a business-as-usual world, I wouldn't even mind sharing this awesome country with others who find their way here, even though I cherish what elbow room I have and would personally prefer a less crowded country. But this isn't a business-as-usual world. The ecological bills are coming due, and we'd better start discussing them realistically. Any policy that further increases the population of the United States - or other First World nations, for that matter - needs to be reexamined, from an ecological standpoint. Any policy that further increases our consumption or pollution, gross or per capita, needs to be reexamined from the same place. Questions of what's "good for the economy" (read: good for further economic growth) shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. I know I'm speaking against my own personal economic self-interest by saying so. That doesn't change the facts as I see them.
Europe is in an enviable place in terms of their possibilities. They would be wise to limit immigration and allow themselves to power down. They won't do it - there is fierce economic competition between the major regions of the world, and encouraging immigration will allow them to remain economically competitive - but it would be wise just the same. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
It seems like England is gonna be one of the most crowded countries in the world!
Quote:
UK population 'will be top in EU'
The UK population is set to become the largest in the European Union, according to a report.
It is expected to increase from its current figure of 61 million to almost 77 million in 2060 - a rise of 25%. This would make it the largest population in the EU, ahead of the projections for France (72 million) and Germany (71 million).
The EU's statistical office Eurostat also predicts the EU population will be 506m in 2060, up from 495m in 2008. It is expected to peak at 521m in 2035 but then decline.
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
Cynus wrote:
I'm confused. You say that reducing the population is good, but then say you need to import people to keep population up. This seems contradictory.
No, what you do is, you want to sustain the declining population trend, and you do this by managing it.
Managing it means that you prevent a crash. Without immigrants, Europe's social and economic system would crash, and that is not what we want. Because we are not psychopaths who like economies to collapse.
We want a managed decline of populations, and that is achieved by importing a number of immigrants for key jobs.
The overall result is still a serious decline in population.
There's absolutely no contradiction here. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
Cynus wrote:
Besides, if you really wanted population reduction in rich countries and economic development in countries with high fertility rates, you'd say that poor countries should open up nursing homes and rich countries should ship the old folks off. You'd get even greater population reduction in the rich countries, and even more economic development in the poor. The best way to do this would be to stop all immigration thus causing a shortage of nurses in the rich country, and a market in the poor for nursing homes. The poor countries wouldn't have to worry about their culture being overrun since the people moving there aren't having any kids and are going to be gone soon.
That's a good idea, and there are some keen marketers already operating cheap nursing homes for Europeans in Morocco. However, this is difficult to manage, given the social, economic and political uncertainties and instabilities in many developing countries, as well as their poor general health infrastructures.
So, if ever such a sector emerges, I'm all for it. But realistically speaking, I don't see this happening. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
coyote wrote:
lorenzo wrote:
We will need many immigrants to sustain our economy.
Forget the economy. There's no way to sustain it. You must know this by now. Don't you?
If you want something to sustain, try sustaining the carrying capacity of your continent. That will be challenging enough. Encouraging immigration definitely will not help.
Surely it will. Who else is going to erect all these wind mills, build all these CSP plants, harvest all that short-rotation coppice and plant all our organic tomatos?
Immigrants are going to do this, led by a select group of European engineers, who together build a sustainable society that serves the large number of old consumers - who don't consume that much anyways - as well as the small group of European youngsters. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
One problem with your little scenario is if you actually do end up raising the standard of living for those immigrants and their families you've also ended up raising their consumption of resources, not exactly what we need. The problem with Americans is our high standard of living and high consumption of resources. More people using more resources is not going to help anything. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: European population declining fast - very good
iogan wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
TreebeardsUncle wrote:
Russia's population will as well and already has. And to heck with their economies. Just want there to be fewer people out there crapping up the world.
g
Amen. Having too few people around is a problem the world should be able to deal with. Too many is what we have to worry about.
Too many Americans, is what we have to worry about. They consume more energy, eat (and throw away) more food, and generally muck about in other peoples business far too much. If we got rid of one American, we could feed 26 or so Somalians. So in order to minimize the number of people that need to go, we'd be better off minimizing the number of Americans..
Sure, but as you know, Europe is the guiding light of the world.
America is just a European project gone wrong. Now we are experimenting with ways to make a society both healthy, wealthy and sustainable - this is our great demographic and socio-economic experiment.
Once we have results worth following, we will implement them in our offshore American project, which, I agree, has been a bit of a fiasco. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
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