I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1436 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
fireplaceguy wrote:
WAKE UP!!! Affordable? From the government? Hell - the way government purchasing works they couldn't buy lunch for two at McDonald's for under three hundred dollars!
Do you believe governments in all 20 or so countries with higher life expectancy than US, as well as 50 or so with lower life expectancy are in any way less wasteful than US government? They aren't, sorry to disapoint you. Neverthless in most of them you can get an MRI without showing your ID.
If Argentina can afford to provide free surgeries and hospital stays to foreign tourists, why USA can't do the same for their own citizens? Tax burden is uncomparebly higher in US. One can easily say that taxes do not exist in Argentina compared to USA.
So what's a deal here? Too many fat healthcare-related workers with a lot of self-esteem? Or what?
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1436 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
fireplaceguy wrote:
big_rc wrote:
Fireplaceguy,
That was a derivative, mean-spirited, ignorant post.
I note you don't dispute the substance. Fact is, from his many posts here, we all know that Heinie has the means to pay for health insurance. We also know he'd much rather stock up on gold and buy land, and that's what he does. This choice is fine with me, right up until he wants me to subsidize it. There are a lot of folks out there who have the ability to pay for things themselves, but just don't want to. They're frequently found on the left agitating for social programs to pay for what they won't since they don't understand (or don't care) that the true price of these programs is our liberty. Like all such people (that includes you, rc) Heineken thinks he can have his cake and eat mine too.
[Text deleted-excessive quoting. -FL} However, when someone calls for socialized medicine I will always call that socialist, because that's what it is. And your guy Obama is a Marxist (which is a totalitarian socialist). Just trace his political roots, which, as with Hillary Clinton, go directly back to Saul Alinsky. (I'm sure that's why he's such a nice guy, just as she's such a sweet woman...)
There is a saying in my language, you could really benefit from it from time to time. It says: Do not throw pearls in front of the pigs. Big-rc is our main resident Negro on this forum. Nuff said.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6535 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Well, we have a bloated socialized military system in place, fully and exorbitantly underwritten by the taxpayers, whether they like it or not. Its excesses do few citizens any good except the defense-company stockholders, the associated feeding chain, and the ultra-wealthy that it's sworn to protect.
Prima faciae, I don't believe that Cuba's health care system treats only tourists. That's the sort of transparent nonsense that knocks the credibility right out of your lungs, Fireplaceguy. Ooof! Similar lies are spun about the Canadian system (and refuted by most of our Canadian members).
Perhaps I am selfish in wanting some health insurance. Nothing fancy, just enough to help me out with basic care. I've paid taxes all my life and in return received virtually nothing I believe in. I'd like to get something for all that money I earned and then had ripped out of my paycheck, just like the Commies do to their citizens.
For me it's a matter of basic survival. I'm entitled to vote in the way that I think will most promote my survival---in this case, by gaining some health insurance, even if it just covers emergency stuff like traumatic injuries. Obama is therefore the logical choice for me.
p.s. Thanks to those who've come to my side in this little tiff. Excellent points have been made. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Last edited by Heineken on Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:27 am; edited 3 times in total
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Quote:
True. And in many ways the best, too. If you're badly hurt, there's no place in the world equal to an American level 1 trauma centre. And much of our high expense goes to technology, which is far more accessible here than in most other countries. (I WOULD like to see other countries pay more for our technology. That would help with the bills here for sure.) I'd also like to see the pharmaceutical companies held back a bit, but that's actually a matter of reducing government (FDA) power here. More of this is what we fear.
In many ways I agree with you. I am a fiscal conservative and see the benefits of the free market in regards to efficiency and innovation as being superb. My point is, however, healthcare, like the provision of infrastructure, education, emergency services and the armed force, is something, in my opinion, government should supply while adopting best practice from private practice.
In regards to your belief that your system is superior, I respectfully disagree. The World Heath Organisation ranked the worlds healthcare systems based on a variety of criteria in 2000. Your system was ranked 37. Below most European countries. France, one of the most socialist countries in Europe, was 1st.
The horror stories are common from the UK as well. Pensioners painfully waiting months for elective surgery is acceptable to you?
Waiting lists have been reduced drastically over the last decade. I think the maximum time for surgery is 3-months now.
Pensioners, who would never be able to afford heath insurance on their £100 a week pension, get good quality medical provision free at the point of contact. No, these people are not great capitalists and are not rich but many of them put their lives on the line to defend this country. They are our Grandfathers and Grandmothers. Are we to let them die in their own filth? Do we have no higher morality than the profit motive? In my opinion we do. The sanctity of human life is more important than the profit motive.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6535 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
I'd rather wait 3 months for surgery than wait forever.
That is the central alternative that Fireplaceguy and others who share his beliefs don't seem to grasp. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 764 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
I love debates such as these.
I have a good chat buddy that lives in Canada, and he has nothing but good things to say about his national health care system. To me, the idea of not having to worry about being devastated by medical bills is well worth the extra taxes (which really isn't that much "extra" at all in Canada...nothing at all like the UK, France, etc.) As for rationing and "limitations" on heath care services, I think we see plenty of that already under private health care schemes...remember the Number One goal of all health insurance companies and privately-run hospitals is to earn maximum profit at lowest cost. The actual job of curing and healing people is totally irrelevant. This is why I fear American hospitals with a true phobic passion...there is little doubt in my mind that I'll be trading extra years of my life in order to not have hospital time...but that's just me, I guess.
So yeah, a government-run system wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be a whole lot less scary and stressful than the idiotic system we have now. And to clear the air about my personal situation, I do have private health coverage at the current time, and yes, it costs a bunch. Is it worth having? For now it is, but if the cost doubles again, forget it. The money just isn't going to be there. Now, take this situation and apply it to the tens of millions who will surely become unemployed in the coming years. Better hope all of those people can stay healthy and accident-free...
This being said, however, I'd be perfectly willing to support a libertarian-style medical system IF all forms of governmental health care is eliminated. This includes Medicare, Medicaid, programs to insure children, Veterans' care - all of it. And health care benefits need to count as taxable income as well, to encourage employers to break free from employee-based health care plans. Those of who who believe in free markets, that's fine and dandy, but I wanna see a true free market. None of this halfway stuff, which is probably why we have so many problems in the first place. If I have to pay for my care out of my own dime, then I don't expect to be supporting anyone else's care either...it's all or nothing as far as I'm concerned.
As for who I'm going to vote for, Obama or McCain...how about neither. I'd be a fool to actually believe that Obama could ever deliver on his mountain of promises. Listening to that man, I'm constantly reminded of those fake facades they use on movie sets...all nice and pretty on the front, but nothing of any substance behind it. If the Democrats were really serious about change, they'd have started that two years ago and boxed Bush right into a corner for his last two years in office. Instead, they just went along for the ride as if it was no big deal. So my faith in either of the two parties to fix whatever problem faces us is pretty close to zero. I'll be voting third party and I'll urge others to do the same. I just wish we had some sort of proportional representation...then maybe, just maybe we could make some sort of progress.
So, this is why I'm just going to sit back, pop me up some popcorn and watch it all go down. At least it'll be a good show. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1436 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Thats a good post Byron. None of the bastards is worth $1 in gasoline costs and tear&wear of the car. Besides, individual votes do not matter in US anyway.
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Heineken wrote:
Well, we have a bloated socialized military system in place, fully and exorbitantly underwritten by the taxpayers, whether they like it or not. Its excesses do few citizens any good except the defense-company stockholders, the associated feeding chain, and the ultra-wealthy that it's sworn to protect.
Agreed. That's my argument, actually. Why turn health care over to these people? Is it because we trust them?
Heineken wrote:
Prima faciae, I don't believe that Cuba's health care system treats only tourists. That's the sort of transparent nonsense that knocks the credibility right out of your lungs, Fireplaceguy. Ooof!
How can this "knock the credibility right out of my lungs" (!) when I never said it? You used to be a technical editor. You should be able to read what I actually wrote.
Heineken wrote:
Similar lies are spun about the Canadian system (and refuted by most of our Canadian members).
Do any of them read, or do they also refute things nobody wrote?
Heineken wrote:
Perhaps I am selfish in wanting some health insurance.
Not at all. Just don't ask someone else to pay for it while you buy land. That's when you start to look selfish.
Heineken wrote:
Nothing fancy, just enough to help me out with basic care.
Glad you don't want limo rides to the clinic!
Heineken wrote:
I've paid taxes all my life and in return received virtually nothing I believe in. I'd like to get something for all that money I earned and then had ripped out of my paycheck, just like the Commies do to their citizens.
You seem to resent having taxes "ripped" from your paycheck. Fine. Why can't I object to the same, particularly when you want even more ripped from me, just so you can live the life you choose and finally receive a government handout you believe in?? Does your fellow man matter at all??
Heineken wrote:
For me it's a matter of basic survival.
No it isn't. If it had came down to that, you'd have already sold your land and/or gold and bought the insurance.
Heineken wrote:
I'm entitled to vote in the way that I think will most promote my survival---in this case, by gaining some health insurance, even if it just covers emergency stuff like traumatic injuries. Obama is therefore the logical choice for me.
And there we have it. Robin Hood's your guy.
Heineken wrote:
p.s. Thanks to those who've come to my side in this little tiff. Excellent points have been made.
They want a free lunch too! _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Pretorian wrote:
If Argentina can afford to provide free surgeries and hospital stays to foreign tourists, why USA can't do the same for their own citizens? Tax burden is uncomparebly higher in US. One can easily say that taxes do not exist in Argentina compared to US
If you understood central banking you'd be embarassed. Inflation is a tax - perhaps the cruelest tax of all. Please check up on inflation in Argentina and get back to us... _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Heineken wrote:
I'd rather wait 3 months for surgery than wait forever.
That is the central alternative that Fireplaceguy and others who share his beliefs don't seem to grasp.
This is a false dilemma, Heineken. I grasp it, but only for for the lie it is. There are obviously many other possibilities here. (A technical editor shouldn't base arguments on such transparent logical fallacies.) For example, you could always pay for your own insurance, and not wait at all for surgery if you need it. Quit pretending that isn't a choice that's always been available to you. _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Joined: Dec 06, 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Stopped at the border.
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Ok, fireplaceguy, what is the difference between wanting to cut your tax bill, and doing whatever is necessary (including exercising political clout and rearranging the tax structure) and wanting to cut your health bill and doing whatever is necessary (including rearranging the structure to widen the pool of payers to as wide a group [universal] as possible)? I'm afraid you miss the point that if we are all in this together we make it cheaper for everyone as well, and we cut down on inefficiency. There are two reasons for going universal. One of them is to cover those that are not covered, the other is to improve the system so that it actually works efficiently. If there is enough left over to cover the indigent as a by product of efficiency what is that to you? Ok, here is your cue to launch into a diatribe about wait times and lists, but there are already examples galore in working systems throughout the world to trump that argument. Are you making your decisions based on some weird moral/legal construct that has to see others suffer or are you just mean? _________________ "Hope encourages men to take risks; men in a strong position may follow her without ruin, if not without loss. But when they stake all that they have to the last coin (for she is a spendthrift), she reveals her real self in the hour of failure."
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
People like the Alaska lady. Pretty and somewhat fresh. I think OB won't make it, but I do not have a crystal ball. nor do I support dems or reps.
One thing about the lady bothers me and that is the scandal they are checking into about her pressuring firing a state worker over ego and hatred with a relatives divorce. If true .. then she is cut from the same cloth as the other guys..just the cloth is made into a skirt.
Fav quote of the week... Putin "hand us Georgia or you go cold", next winter "hand us Poland or you go cold". Next winter "hand us Germany or you go cold" (sorry forgot who wrote it.)
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
Quote:
To me, the idea of not having to worry about being devastated by medical bills is well worth the extra taxes (which really isn't that much "extra" at all in Canada...nothing at all like the UK, France, etc.)
The UK and France are almost polar opposites in terms of capitalism vs. socialism. The French often object to our initiatives in Europe by saying they do not want the Anglo-Saxon free market capitalism like the US and the UK. We actually invented the concept of the invisible hand of the free market!
Our Tax as a percentage of GDP is circa 36% compared to circa 28% for the US and 33% for Canada, Frances is circa 45% and the Nordic states is close to 50%! So we by far one of the most conservative in Europe in fiscal terms.
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
allenwrench wrote:
...One thing about the lady bothers me and that is the scandal they are checking into about her pressuring firing a state worker over ego and hatred with a relatives divorce. If true .. then she is cut from the same cloth as the other guys..just the cloth is made into a skirt.
Nice try at innuendo. Googled this myself and the truth is readily available. The state worker is a cop. He poached game and tasered his stepson. He should have been fired but the police union helped him keep his job. (Ego and hatred? Hardly. Is that the kind of cop you want on the force?)
Anyway, the pressure to fire him came from others in government - not her.
allenwrench wrote:
Putin "hand us Georgia or you go cold", next winter "hand us Poland or you go cold". Next winter "hand us Germany or you go cold" (sorry forgot who wrote it.)
That's a good one! _________________ Oil - it's what's for dinner.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 764 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Obama's Hope Fades
evilgenius wrote:
Ok, fireplaceguy, what is the difference between wanting to cut your tax bill, and doing whatever is necessary (including exercising political clout and rearranging the tax structure) and wanting to cut your health bill and doing whatever is necessary (including rearranging the structure to widen the pool of payers to as wide a group [universal] as possible)? I'm afraid you miss the point that if we are all in this together we make it cheaper for everyone as well, and we cut down on inefficiency. There are two reasons for going universal. One of them is to cover those that are not covered, the other is to improve the system so that it actually works efficiently. If there is enough left over to cover the indigent as a by product of efficiency what is that to you? Ok, here is your cue to launch into a diatribe about wait times and lists, but there are already examples galore in working systems throughout the world to trump that argument. Are you making your decisions based on some weird moral/legal construct that has to see others suffer or are you just mean?
Great post, as I agree with the increased efficiencies of a universal system...get everyone covered, and spread the risks across the entire population. Of course you still have the general wealth transfer from young to old, due to increased demand on health care as people get older, but this is what we have now, with Medicare. And truth be told, most uninsured care is paid for by the government and/or higher costs for those do pay for care...so we're not gaining anything at all keeping what we have, for certain.
But in an era of declining wealth and overall income, there's going to be less and less health care to go around, just like there will be less oil to go around, fewer goodies in the malls, etc. So regardless of what system is in place, the people are going to get less and less care as the years go by. Can you imagine how well this is going to go over with the tidal wave of Boomers bringing forth virtually unlimited demand into a resource-starved era?
I've never had that much faith in doctors (and especially hospitals!) to cure and heal the sick anyhow...I just wish we had some alternatives to pursue in this regard. Perhaps I should start building up an herb-based pharmacy...hehe. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
...and the meek shall inherit the Earth!
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That's a good one!
