Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
MadScientist wrote:
imo, if you have to go non semi auto, you might as well get the .30-06 springfield or other high caliber rifle round. The .223 isnt that great at stopping power. kinda like the 9mm, it relies on multiple hits and death over time. you have lost the option for multiple hits, so imo you should go for heavy knockdown power. For example, the .30-06 springfield penetrates most body armor.
Have you seen ballistics gel with a good 5.56 round? The 5.56 can do most everything the .308 )30-06_ will do at short to medium range.
As for body armor, its rifle or pistol rated. If the 30-06 will p;unch through it so will the 5.56. If the 5.56 cant get through it the 30-06 wont UNLESS its an AP bullet which is a whole different ballagme.
Which doesnt matter as the only body armor rifle rated I believe is the SAPI plates. No SAPI and any rifle will cut through and some pistols. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:27 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Specop_007 wrote:
MadScientist wrote:
imo, if you have to go non semi auto, you might as well get the .30-06 springfield or other high caliber rifle round. The .223 isnt that great at stopping power. kinda like the 9mm, it relies on multiple hits and death over time. you have lost the option for multiple hits, so imo you should go for heavy knockdown power. For example, the .30-06 springfield penetrates most body armor.
Have you seen ballistics gel with a good 5.56 round? The 5.56 can do most everything the .308 )30-06_ will do at short to medium range.
As for body armor, its rifle or pistol rated. If the 30-06 will p;unch through it so will the 5.56. If the 5.56 cant get through it the 30-06 wont UNLESS its an AP bullet which is a whole different ballagme.
Which doesnt matter as the only body armor rifle rated I believe is the SAPI plates. No SAPI and any rifle will cut through and some pistols.
I think the general point remains valid, about going for a higher power round if you're not using a semi-auto. Would .308 have been a better example? _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
The_Virginian wrote:
Arsenal wrote:
Glocks are nice weapons but I have never been able to get a consistent group out of them. Its not he firearms fault at all!! I have shot tons of pistols with varying degrees of accuracy but for some reason the Glock is my nemesis. Sigs, H&K, Kimber, and Springfield Armory are my favorite. Always shoot the style of weapon before you buy because you may just find a brand that does not work for you.
Two reasons, Mushy Trigger and OVER-TRAVEL.fixed with:
Lone Wolf
I've got a glock 23, with a trigger job, custom buffer spring, guide rod insert, and a target barrel. I know how to shoot, and have run dozens of different handloads through it working on accuracy. It still dosen't group as well as I would like. I've run the range from 145 gr bullets at 1350 fps to 180 gr bullets at a lazy 600 fps, and the best I can do is about 4" at 50 feet.
For comparison, I can do 1.5" or better with my browning 22 target pistol, and about the same with my ruger .357 revolver. If I concentrate, I can do <1 inch groups with both. On an encouraging note, I can pick the Glock up, and dump 10 rounds into a 6" group in about 12-15 seconds. I'm faster when I screw the muzzlebrake on the barrel, but it messes up my groups.
Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Like ANY manufactuer, You can get a lemon in every batch. And glock has had some pretty bad batches in the past. (metalurgical problems, Unsupported chambers, you name it).
Have you tested your factory standard vs. "custom" barrel with the trigger improvements? (just curious)
Glocks are not "the most accurate" handgun. CZ's, Some finer (FN) High powers, fixed barrel walthers and Revolvers, and tight 1911's take the cake in that dept.
But if you get a good (the majority) example of the Glock breed, you have less springs to change, and a handgun designed to shoot more than most before repair...one that will rust less as well due to the tenifer undercoat.
I'm on my 3rd Glock (sold /traded the others to FFL's)...no expert, but no newbie either...
To me Glocks are a well engineered weapon for (cheaper) mass production than other steel frame guns.
Love it for what it is.
Hate it for what it is.
Use it for what it is.
EDITED to add:
Shot my Glock 30 today....LOVED IT...was pretty accurate at close range....45 in Glock is a pussycat round...was easy to make decent groups at 25 feet.
I did not change a thing in this pistol...and I don't plan to...
but I DID have the opportunity to pick from 3 separate pistols and take the one with the best trigger pull. (friendly shop)
I also tried out a friends .40 and it was a little harder to make "good" groups for me...but he did better with it...still not as good as my 30, and his has the trigger improvements...
_________________ With Love to all, and Malice to none.
"A people is conquered not when they lose a war, but when they adopt the song and customs of the enemy"
-Chacham S
Last edited by The_Virginian on Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:10 pm; edited 7 times in total
Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
vilemerchant wrote:
I'm starting to think seriously about finally looking into buying a firearm. I want a rifle and since I live in Australia where semi-autos are banned, I'm thinking this Remington 7615 pump-action rifle might be a decent compromise. It can take M16 mags and fire either the usual 223 remington round or the proper NATO 5.56
Anyone any better suggestions for a non-semiauto reliable rifle with a decent rate of fire and a little bit of punch? My only previous experience with firearms was the Australian Army Steyr 5.56 assault rifle. I quite like the idea of this 223 as the rounds are extremely commonplace in Australia.
did a search on thefiringline (dot com) Seems the new Rem Pumps are accurate and reliable.... YMMV.
I too am partial to .308 bolts with optional 10 round detachable mags like Styer SBS etc. ....if I was in Australia I would consider getting BOTH the Remington pump in 5.56 and a good .308 bolt action...and of course a 12 ga.
add in a decent handgun and your set. _________________ With Love to all, and Malice to none.
"A people is conquered not when they lose a war, but when they adopt the song and customs of the enemy"
-Chacham S
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
davep wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:
MadScientist wrote:
imo, if you have to go non semi auto, you might as well get the .30-06 springfield or other high caliber rifle round. The .223 isnt that great at stopping power. kinda like the 9mm, it relies on multiple hits and death over time. you have lost the option for multiple hits, so imo you should go for heavy knockdown power. For example, the .30-06 springfield penetrates most body armor.
Have you seen ballistics gel with a good 5.56 round? The 5.56 can do most everything the .308 )30-06_ will do at short to medium range.
As for body armor, its rifle or pistol rated. If the 30-06 will p;unch through it so will the 5.56. If the 5.56 cant get through it the 30-06 wont UNLESS its an AP bullet which is a whole different ballagme.
Which doesnt matter as the only body armor rifle rated I believe is the SAPI plates. No SAPI and any rifle will cut through and some pistols.
I think the general point remains valid, about going for a higher power round if you're not using a semi-auto. Would .308 have been a better example?
I'm simply saying rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols. A .223 will do everything a .308 or .338 will do to kevlar because kevlar is rated as pistol or rifle (With some minor sub categories).
As for "knockdown" power you'll fair far better with marksmanship then with caliber. Shoot a man in the ey with a .22LR and hes done, shoot a man in the arm with a .50 BMG and hes still a threat. Any COM (Center of mass) shot with a centerfire round is going to leave a big mess. At short to medium ranges I would put more weight in bullet selection then caliber. I wouldnt feel undergunned with anything .223 and up.
I would leave it up to individual shooter preference. Semi auto should NEVER be used as a replacement to marksmanship. If a shooter is a big burly SOB who is not phased by recoil by all means buy the biggest damned gun you can afford. But, if a shooter is recoil sensitive theres no reason to buy a 30-06 when a 5.56 or .243 will do everything you need. I can shoot a .223 all day long without a problem. After a few boxes of 30-06 I'm ready to pack it in. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I love this blog. How long do you really think you can hold out. When us special forces ppl come calling? I am serious here. Its a joke to think you can cowboy your way out of that bad a time.
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
joelcolorado wrote:
I love this blog. How long do you really think you can hold out. When us special forces ppl come calling? I am serious here. Its a joke to think you can cowboy your way out of that bad a time.
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Specop_007 wrote:
After a few boxes of 30-06 I'm ready to pack it in.
I own a 30 ought. It sucks. Regretted buying it after about the 10th shot.
It's like playing that game with your buddy where you punch each other in the shoulder.
Except your buddy is Lou Ferrigno.
30-06 is only still very popular because it's got the historic market penetration and the "big dick" appeal. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 38 Location: east of west north of south
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Cashmere wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:
After a few boxes of 30-06 I'm ready to pack it in.
I own a 30 ought. It sucks. Regretted buying it after about the 10th shot.
It's like playing that game with your buddy where you punch each other in the shoulder.
Except your buddy is Lou Ferrigno.
30-06 is only still very popular because it's got the historic market penetration and the "big dick" appeal.
And it's very effective at doing what it was designed to do.
I've owned at least half a dozen 06's and the only one that had a nasty kick was a ultralight mountain rifle.
The good old Remington 741 in 30-06 is still my favorite brush rifle for hunting
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
gonfishn wrote:
Cashmere wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:
After a few boxes of 30-06 I'm ready to pack it in.
I own a 30 ought. It sucks. Regretted buying it after about the 10th shot.
It's like playing that game with your buddy where you punch each other in the shoulder.
Except your buddy is Lou Ferrigno.
30-06 is only still very popular because it's got the historic market penetration and the "big dick" appeal.
And it's very effective at doing what it was designed to do.
I've owned at least half a dozen 06's and the only one that had a nasty kick was a ultralight mountain rifle.
The good old Remington 741 in 30-06 is still my favorite brush rifle for hunting
Your experience differs from the other twenty-four 30-06 owners with whom I have discussed this matter.
If a 30-06 has enough mass to make the kick bearable, it is unbearable to carry long distances.
The best question is . . .
What do I get from the 30-06 that I don't get from the next caliber down that doesn't kick much at all, that I can shoot all day, that has cheaper ammo available, that can be chambered in a lighter rifle?
What?
Going through body armor at 200 yards?
The day I make a decision to buy a rifle because it goes through body armor at a longer range than some other rifle is an extremely bad day indeed, because, as I'm sure you see, if you're ever in a position where you have a need to fire at a man wearing body armor at 200 yards, your life is probably just about to end. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
joelcolorado wrote:
I love this blog. How long do you really think you can hold out. When us special forces ppl come calling? I am serious here. Its a joke to think you can cowboy your way out of that bad a time.
It isnt the special forces or military you need to worry about. Its the guy across the street..... _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Cashmere wrote:
gonfishn wrote:
Cashmere wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:
After a few boxes of 30-06 I'm ready to pack it in.
I own a 30 ought. It sucks. Regretted buying it after about the 10th shot.
It's like playing that game with your buddy where you punch each other in the shoulder.
Except your buddy is Lou Ferrigno.
30-06 is only still very popular because it's got the historic market penetration and the "big dick" appeal.
And it's very effective at doing what it was designed to do.
I've owned at least half a dozen 06's and the only one that had a nasty kick was a ultralight mountain rifle.
The good old Remington 741 in 30-06 is still my favorite brush rifle for hunting
Your experience differs from the other twenty-four 30-06 owners with whom I have discussed this matter.
If a 30-06 has enough mass to make the kick bearable, it is unbearable to carry long distances.
The best question is . . .
What do I get from the 30-06 that I don't get from the next caliber down that doesn't kick much at all, that I can shoot all day, that has cheaper ammo available, that can be chambered in a lighter rifle?
What?
Going through body armor at 200 yards?
The day I make a decision to buy a rifle because it goes through body armor at a longer range than some other rifle is an extremely bad day indeed, because, as I'm sure you see, if you're ever in a position where you have a need to fire at a man wearing body armor at 200 yards, your life is probably just about to end.
Humorously well said!
I agree completely. The thing is people like to discuss the versatility of the 06. You can use it for anything from varmints to bear. So everyone loves it.
Granted its far from the best choice for varmints and I'd want something a bit stouter for brown bear, but it'll get the job done.
So from the 1 gun perspective 06 aint a bad choice. Also, when "in the thick of it" recoil becomes a non issue. From the bench or casual shooting yeah but in the excitement of the hunt you wouldnt notice it much.
But still. I just dont need the 06. Its a fantastic round, its very versatile, you can buy it ANYWHERE....but its hardly my go-to gun.
if I had to have a 1 size fits all gun I'd probably go with something in 6/6.5. Far more heat then .22 cal, far less recoil then 30 cal and better ballistics then both! _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Joined: Mar 18, 2008 Posts: 466 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Cloud9 wrote:
The M-1 was carried all over Europe and in Korea. It is not all that unpleasant to shoot and a good will will drive nails at 100 yards.
I couldn't agree more!! I have a M-1 National Match .308 which is so accurate it is scary. The only down side is the weight of carrying all the ammo. A .223 would be better to carry long distances but I will keep my M-1.
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