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Carlhole
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 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Will Large Hadron Collider Explain Accelerating Universe? |
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Accelerating Universe
The universe is accelerating in its expansion. That requires an unfathomable amount of energy. Or it requires that the universe is not "exploding" outwards from energetic forces within, but "falling" outwards in response to some as yet unknown property akin to gravity. Yet, we can't detect this property or energy, and we can't use it and we can't explain the acceleration.
Fundamentally, we don't know shitt about energy or the universe, do we?
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Last edited by Carlhole on Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:06 am; edited 2 times in total |
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eastbay
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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The energy required to force all matter away from it's central point was all spent in less than one second at the moment of the singularity. It's all been 'coasting' outward since then and will eventually collapse back upon itself triggering a new cycle. Gravity, which we know very little about, will eventually bring about the return of all matter in our universe to the central point triggering another singularity with this mysterious process repeating itself into infinity as it has since infinite time past.
It's the same here as it is in an infinite number of 'universes'. It's really no big deal. 
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Carlhole
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| eastbay wrote: | | The energy required to force all matter away from it's central point was all spent in less than one second at the moment of the singularity. It's all been 'coasting' outward since then and will eventually collapse back upon itself triggering a new cycle. |
Yeah... The Oscillating Universe... I don't think that's correct. I think that's a theory that has fallen by the wayside.
I think that it is pretty near established fact now that the universe' expansion is accelerating. This has been confirmed through a number of different observations. See the Wiki link.
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sicophiliac
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Joined: Jun 28, 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| Actually from what I understand the evidence suggests its accelerating outward. The theories are that some sort of dark energy is pushing it out or maybe that the properties of gravity itself on such a large scale are causing it. Maybe our universe is getting tugged out by a near by universe like the membrane theory implies. Even if there is some sort of identifiable energy source thats causing the accelerated expansion of the universe I am pretty sure its so widely dispersed over million of light years that it would never be worth recovering. |
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eastbay
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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Yes, of course I'm as well versed as any layman could be regarding the ever-expanding universe theory... but I'm having a terrible time getting my mind wrapped around that bizarre idea. So instead, I'm sticking to the one I'm more comfy with. Oscillating. I mean, what force could possibly cause all the matter in our universe to accelerate? That's just too much for my double digit IQ to process. So until someone explains in lay terms the force causing everything to accelerate away from everything else, I'm staying put. I suspect we may determine that the observations which caused the formation of the accelerating universe theory are flawed in a way we can't understand yet. I certainly hope so anyhow!
| Carlhole wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | The energy required to force all matter away from it's central point was all spent in less than one second at the moment of the singularity. It's all been 'coasting' outward since then and will eventually collapse back upon itself triggering a new cycle. |
Yeah... The Oscillating Universe... I don't think that's correct. I think that's a theory that has fallen by the wayside.
I think that it is pretty near established fact now that the universe' expansion is accelerating. This has been confirmed through a number of different observations. See the Wiki link. |
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Carlhole
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| sicophiliac wrote: | | Actually from what I understand the evidence suggests its accelerating outward. The theories are that some sort of dark energy is pushing it out or maybe that the properties of gravity itself on such a large scale are causing it. Maybe our universe is getting tugged out by a near by universe like the membrane theory implies. Even if there is some sort of identifiable energy source thats causing the accelerated expansion of the universe I am pretty sure its so widely dispersed over million of light years that it would never be worth recovering. |
I don't know how anyone can draw any conclusions about the energies or forces involved. There's some basic property, some unknown dimensionality or SOMETHING that science just can't get clue about.
I just posted this thread as a reflection that we really do not know anything about the universe in any fundamental way. Despite knowledge of the big bang and all sorts of observations about quantum mechanics, gravity, time, etc. -- we STILL are basically clueless about the whole utterly mysterious enchilada.
How cruel it is, to die without ever being able to know just what in hell the whole thing was!
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sicophiliac
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| You know I think this stuff in general is beyond the comprehension of most of our human minds (Einstein and Hawkins are exceptions to that) so don't beat yourself up. At the same time recognize that phenomenon that seem to defy common sense occur all the time in quantum physics,relativity etc... |
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sicophiliac
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| Carlhole wrote: | | sicophiliac wrote: | | Actually from what I understand the evidence suggests its accelerating outward. The theories are that some sort of dark energy is pushing it out or maybe that the properties of gravity itself on such a large scale are causing it. Maybe our universe is getting tugged out by a near by universe like the membrane theory implies. Even if there is some sort of identifiable energy source thats causing the accelerated expansion of the universe I am pretty sure its so widely dispersed over million of light years that it would never be worth recovering. |
I don't know how anyone can draw any conclusions about the energies or forces involved. There's some basic property, some unknown dimensionality or SOMETHING that science just can't get clue about.
I just posted this thread as a reflection that we really do not know anything about the universe in any fundamental way. Despite knowledge of the big bang and all sorts of observations about quantum mechanics, gravity, time, etc. -- we STILL are basically clueless about the whole utterly mysterious enchilada.
How cruel it is, to die without ever being able to know just what in hell the whole thing was! |
Yeah I agree completely, thats why I said I am pretty sure about it. Thinking about it though, if only over millions and millions of light years can this energy begin to overtake gravity I doubt its something that we can harness at a net energy gain. |
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eastbay
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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Here's a guy who's research is causing a bit of a stir. He offers a way to avoid the serious problems with the oscillating universe theory while retaining the concept of the basic cyclic nature of the universe.
I can't understand much of his theory which involves changes in time, but the bottom line is that the accelerating universe theory must be flawed somehow according to this new theory.
Either way, humans will never tap into this energy. And even if we could, we don't have enough time remaining to create a way to lasso it.
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diemos
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| eastbay wrote: | | ... but I'm having a terrible time getting my mind wrapped around that bizarre idea. |
In Douglas Adam's books there is the bistromatic drive, which uses the fact that numbers written on the check pads of italian restaurants behave differently than any other numbers in the universe. It exploits this fact to propel a ship across the stars. This property of numbers on the check pads of italian restaurants caused great consternation among traditional mathematicians until they invented phrases like "relative subjectivity framework" and then they were able to relax and get on with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bistromathic_drive
The experiments of the last decade that measured the cosmic microwave background and supernova redshifts showed that the universe should expand forever and that the expansion was accelerating. This caused create consternation among cosmologists until they invented the phrase "dark energy" and then they were able to relax and get on with it.
What's the "dark energy"? F!cked if we know, but apparently it's causing the universe's expansion to accelerate. |
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Carlhole
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| sicophiliac wrote: | | Einstein and Hawkins are exceptions... |
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Those guys are admirable and smart and incredibly curious but I'm afraid they are in the same boat as all of us when it comes to understanding the sheer zen koan that is the Universe.
I wish I lived in a world where more billions were spent on ongoing research into fundamental questions such as this one than on all the useless crap we now spend billions on.
What was it you mentioned? The "membrane theory"? What is that?
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eastbay
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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Exactly! Well put. The hypothetical material, dark matter, comes in pretty handy to make the ever-expanding theory work. We'll probably never know exactly which theory is true, oscillating or ever-expanding, but we do know with 100% certainty oil will get ever scarcer and costlier over time. And it won't take very much time for this to occur.
| diemos wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | ... but I'm having a terrible time getting my mind wrapped around that bizarre idea. |
In Douglas Adam's books there is the bistromatic drive, which uses the fact that numbers written on the check pads of italian restaurants behave differently than any other numbers in the universe. It exploits this fact to propel a ship across the stars. This property of numbers on the check pads of italian restaurants caused great consternation among traditional mathematicians until they invented phrases like "relative subjectivity framework" and then they were able to relax and get on with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bistromathic_drive
The experiments of the last decade that measured the cosmic microwave background and supernova redshifts showed that the universe should expand forever and that the expansion was accelerating. This caused create consternation among cosmologists until they invented the phrase "dark energy" and then they were able to relax and get on with it.
What's the "dark energy"? F!cked if we know, but apparently it's causing the universe's expansion to accelerate. |
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diemos
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| eastbay wrote: | | Exactly! Well put. The hypothetical material, dark matter, comes in pretty handy to make the ever-expanding theory work. |
Dark Energy.
Dark Matter is the hypothetical stuff we made up to explain why galaxies don't fly apart from their own rotation since there's not enough visible matter there to do the job of holding them together. |
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eastbay
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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I'm sticking with small time gardening and the study of peak oil. This cosmology stuff is beyond me fellas... heh.
'Hypothetical' dark matter. 'Hypothetical' dark energy.... it's all too much for me to wrap my mind around.
Someone let me know when the oscillating universe theory comes back into fashion. Without all the 'hypotheticals'. 
| diemos wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | Exactly! Well put. The hypothetical material, dark matter, comes in pretty handy to make the ever-expanding theory work. |
Dark Energy.
Dark Matter is the hypothetical stuff we made up to explain why galaxies don't fly apart from their own rotation since there's not enough visible matter there to do the job of holding them together. |
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Carlhole
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Energy Source For Accelerating Universe? |
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| diemos wrote: | | eastbay wrote: | | Exactly! Well put. The hypothetical material, dark matter, comes in pretty handy to make the ever-expanding theory work. |
Dark Energy.
Dark Matter is the hypothetical stuff we made up to explain why galaxies don't fly apart from their own rotation since there's not enough visible matter there to do the job of holding them together. |
Yeah... It's like we have to hypothesize that forces MUST exist but we can't detect them directly.
And it's not just the attractive force that dark matter provides that we have to invent, we also have to invent a repulsive force which is causing the acceleration. And there, we are just flat stumped. We don't have a damn clue about how to explain THAT! It certainly seems like a theory explaining the acceleration would be an extremely useful addition to human knowledge if it could be known.
It's always seemed mendacious when I've heard scientists and others talk from a position of authority on energy, possibilities for our energy future, etc. -- when the truth of the matter is we really don't know diddly-squat about the real horsepower driving The Universe.
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