Peak Oil News

 

  Login or Register
 
Menu
 News
 Search
 Topics
 Stories Archive
 Submit News
 Discussions
 Code of Conduct
 Forums
 Forums Search
 Last 24 Hours
 PO 24hrs
 Peak Blog
 Resources
 About Us
 Downloads
 Web Links
 PeakWiki
 PeakPortal
 Focus Search
 Peak TV
 Peak Oil Boston
 Houston Peak Oil
 Members
 Your Account
 Members List
 Ignore List
 JOIN!
 Private Messages
 
google
 
PeakSpeak
NICKNAME

Download TeamSpeak
What is PeakSpeak?
Peak Oil on IRC
 
Photo Album
Submit Photo
Peakoil.com is You!


member photos
 
Light Sweet Crude Oil
 
Member Quotes
Oil's energy contribution has declined by about 12% since 1999. The world's economies have also declined by about 12%. (Using conventional metrics, which are time delayed determinations, this will only be seen in hind sight). The massive destruction of asset values now occurring testifies to it happening. Peak is well behind us, world economies have peaked and will continue to decline.

shortonoil

Suggest Quote

 
ICM
Cisco & Net App Training
 
Peak Oil News: Forums

Peakoil.com :: View topic - Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly version    Peakoil.com Forum Index -> Energy Technology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Carlhole
Knight of the Realm


Joined: Jul 05, 2004
Posts: 3275

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive

Wired wrote:
Chinese researchers claim they've confirmed the theory behind an "impossible" space drive, and are proceeding to build a demonstration version. If they're right, this might transform the economics of satellites, open up new possibilities for space exploration –- and give the Chinese a decisive military advantage in space.

To say that the "Emdrive" (short for "electromagnetic drive") concept is controversial would be an understatement. According to Roger Shawyer, the British scientist who developed the concept, the drive converts electrical energy into thrust via microwaves, without violating any laws of physics. Many researchers believe otherwise. An article about the Emdrive in New Scientist magazine drew a massive volley of criticism. Scientists not only argued that Shawyer's work was blatantly impossible, and that his reasoning was flawed. They also said the article should never have been published.

"It is well known that Roger Shawyer's 'electromagnetic relativity drive' violates the law of conservation of momentum, making it simply the latest in a long line of 'perpetuum mobiles' that have been proposed and disproved for centuries," wrote John Costella, an Australian physicist. "His analysis is rubbish and his 'drive' impossible."


Quote:
Shawyer stands by his theoretical work. His company, Satellite Propulsion Research (SPR), has constructed demonstration engines, which he says produce thrust using a tapering resonant cavity filled with microwaves. He is adamant that this is not a perpetual motion machine, and does not violate the law of conservation of momentum because different reference frames apply to the drive and the waves within it. Shawyer's big challenge, he says, has been getting people who will actually look into his claims rather than simply dismissing them.

Such extravagant claims are usually associated with self-taught, backyard inventors claiming Einstein got it all wrong. But Shawyer is a scientist who has worked with radar and communication systems and was a program manager at European space company EADS Astrium; his work rests entirely on Einstein being right. The thrust is the result of a relativistic effect and would not occur under simple Newtonian physics. Many have dismissed his work out of hand, and British government funding has ceased. He has had some interest from both the United States and China. Now the Chinese connection with the Northwestern Polytechnical University (NPU) in Xi'an seems to have paid off.

_________________
"May you live in interesting times"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TheDude
Expert
Expert


Joined: Apr 06, 2006
Posts: 3626
Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

http://bamapachyderm.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/picard-no-facepalm.jpg

Very Happy Interesting read, and opinions from those qualified to know range from "load of bloody rubbish" to "outstanding science," too.
_________________
Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
C'mon man, who're you gonna believe?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Carlhole
Knight of the Realm


Joined: Jul 05, 2004
Posts: 3275

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

I didn't realize that McCain had such a huge, black sign.
_________________
"May you live in interesting times"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
SILENTTODD
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude


Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Tustin, CA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Carlhole wrote:
I didn't realize that McCain had such a huge, black sign.

McCain? Isn’t that guy that's running with Vice President nominee Sarah Palin?
_________________
Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Carlhole
Knight of the Realm


Joined: Jul 05, 2004
Posts: 3275

PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Principle of Operation

emdrive.com wrote:
Principle of Operation

At first sight the idea of propulsion without propellant seems impossible. However the technology is firmly anchored in the basic laws of physics and following an extensive review process, no transgressions of these laws have been identified.

The principle of operation is based on the well-known phenomenon of radiation pressure. This relies on Newton’s Second Law where force is defined as the rate of change of momentum. Thus an electromagnetic (EM) wave, travelling at the speed of light has a certain momentum which it will transfer to a reflector, resulting in a tiny force.

If the same EM wave is travelling at a fraction of the speed of light, the rate of change of momentum, and hence force, is reduced by that fraction. The propagation velocity of an EM wave, and the resulting force it exerts, can be varied depending on the geometry of a waveguide within which it travels. This was demonstrated by work carried out in the 1950’s. (CULLEN, A.L. ‘Absolute Power Measurements at Microwave Frequencies’ IEE Proceedings Vol 99 Part 1V 1952 P.100)

Thus if the EM wave travelling in a tapered waveguide is bounced between two reflectors, with a large velocity difference at the reflector surfaces, the force difference will give a resultant thrust to the waveguide linking the two reflectors. If the reflectors are separated by a multiple of half the effective wavelength of the EM wave, this thrust will be multiplied by the Q of the resulting resonant cavity, as illustrated in fig 1.



Fig 1. Diagram of an engine concept.

The inevitable objection raised, is that the apparently closed system produced by this arrangement cannot result in an output force, but will merely produce strain within the waveguide walls. However, this ignores Einstein’s Special Law of Relativity in which separate frames of reference have to be applied at velocities approaching the speed of light. Thus the system of EM wave and waveguide can be regarded as an open system, with the EM wave and the waveguide having separate frames of reference.

A similar approach is necessary to explain the principle of the laser gyroscope, where open system attitude information is obtained from an apparently closed system device.


Seems like a simple enough thing to test and prove or disprove.
_________________
"May you live in interesting times"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
GASMON
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude


Joined: Mar 29, 2008
Posts: 846
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive Add User to Ignore List Reply with quote

Secret fuel - Heinz beans !!



Gasmon
_________________
Been there, Done that, Bought the tee-shirt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly version    Peakoil.com Forum Index -> Energy Technology All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Atom News FeedRSS 1.0 News FeedRSS 2.0 News FeedRSS Forums Feed