Oil's energy contribution has declined by about 12% since 1999. The world's economies have also declined by about 12%. (Using conventional metrics, which are time delayed determinations, this will only be seen in hind sight). The massive destruction of asset values now occurring testifies to it happening.
Peak is well behind us, world economies have peaked and will continue to decline.
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Honda Clarity update
Honda says it will be a decade before the Clarity enters mass production and could be longer before hydrogen fuel is readily available for drivers in all locations.
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
*Insert sarcastic remark noting that nearly everyone here knew that Hydrogen was going to be a flop and nothing but a PR stunt to keep the masses quiet* _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
Let us wait another decade and see. I'm sure back in the day people said the ICE would be a flop and would never replace steam. I read that the first auto races were so slow and boring spectators yelled out Get a horse!!
So we never know what the future holds do we.
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
vampyregirl wrote:
Let us wait another decade and see. I'm sure back in the day people said the ICE would be a flop and would never replace steam. I read that the first auto races were so slow and boring spectators yelled out Get a horse!!
So we never know what the future holds do we.
_________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
3aidlillahi wrote:
*Insert sarcastic remark noting that nearly everyone here knew that Hydrogen was going to be a flop and nothing but a PR stunt to keep the masses quiet*
insert cartoon of LA Clarity driving motorist explaining to the insurance company that the pedestrian he had just ran over was claiming that he was standing in the middle of the road because he had read in Doomer porn that there was no way a PR stunt could actually hurt him.
5 years ago fuel cells cars were an interesting. 2 years ago they were one off prototypes. Mass produced versions are now being field tested in California.
Call me crazy, but I see a trend here! What was it the buggy whip manufacturers said? Oh yeah...."look at those horseless carriage PR stunts keeping the masses quiet".
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
You have a great name, short on sense. Fits you well. Continue to believe in as much hype as you want.
Honda's auto sales were down 30% last month over a year ago. Even the smart auto companies like Honda and Toyota are not immune to economic downturn and a financial collapse. Without hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars that are needed to fund this research, these workers, these plants, these prototypes, then nothing of amazing technological achievement will be made. They won't, even if they could, finance a car that doesn't have fueling pumps nor a proven customer base.
We live in a resource-limited world. We've all known that. Now we're coming to terms with a finance-limited world. Alternative modes of transportation will have the hardest time finding the finances when even traditional, highly profitable modes of transport are having a very difficult time. _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Text is next to an image of Neptune, with the label "Proton" on it.
Quote:
The page is scaled so that the smallest thing on it, the electron, is one pixel. That makes the proton, this big ball right next to us, a thousand pixels across, and the distance between them is... yep, fifty million pixels (not a hundred million, because we're only showing the radius of the atom. ie: from the middle to the edge). If your monitor displays 72 pixels to the inch, then that works out to eleven miles - making this possibly the biggest page you've ever seen (I personally have seen one that was set up to be even bigger, though its exact size did not seem to represent anything specific).
_________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
C'mon man, who're you gonna believe?
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
3aidlillahi wrote:
You have a great name, short on sense. Fits you well. Continue to believe in as much hype as you want.
Hype? I believe in 3500# of steel, plastic, aluminum rolling on 4 wheels powered by a fuel cell....its not called "The Hype".
2aidlillahi wrote:
Honda's auto sales were down 30% last month over a year ago. Even the smart auto companies like Honda and Toyota are not immune to economic downturn and a financial collapse.
No one ever said they were. As a card carrying Sierra club member, I consider less car sales a good thing.
2aidlillahi wrote:
Without hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars that are needed to fund this research, these workers, these plants, these prototypes, then nothing of amazing technological achievement will be made. They won't, even if they could, finance a car that doesn't have fueling pumps nor a proven customer base.
Perhaps you should begin a letter writing campaign to GM and tell them to stop investment and research on the Volt? Maybe another one to Honda telling them to repossess all Claritys because they should be as smart as you? You could save them alot of money with better marketing knowledge of what people do, and don't want to drive.
2aidlillahi wrote:
We live in a resource-limited world. We've all known that.
Since way before you and I were born. Did the Bronze Age end because of lack of tin? Nope..but the Greeks were certainly worried about it.
2aidlillahi wrote:
Now we're coming to terms with a finance-limited world. Alternative modes of transportation will have the hardest time finding the finances when even traditional, highly profitable modes of transport are having a very difficult time.
People not buying a car because they are waiting for the financial world to settle is different than people not being able to get a loan. And SUV's are now highly profitable when they can't even give them away? Automakers have to find SOME way to sell you a small car ( using less natural resources to build I might add )...for $30G's...and have you think its a deal. Fuel cells, electrics, PHEV's, sound like nothing but marketing ploys to me! Which just HAPPEN to help in a resource limited world.....wouldn't those old Greeks just be AMAZED?
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
SOS - if you think hydrogen will ever be used as a fuel in a fleet of vehicles, then you simply don't understand the technology involved.
It's really as simple as that, and all of your references to "trends" and "buggy whips" don't change the simple truth of it. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
Cashmere wrote:
SOS - if you think hydrogen will ever be used as a fuel in a fleet of vehicles, then you simply don't understand the technology involved.
I think I understand the technology....maybe? We used to say it was impossible....then we said the engineering wasn't there to solve the size of the stack issues....then we said it was too expensive....then we said peak oil will cause the world to fall apart around it before it can happen, now that they are mass produced and being driven around California the best we have left is....
it can't happen because I don't understand the technology involved?
Okay...I don't understand how a fuel stack works...now...how do we fix this issue of these things actually DRIVING around California?
Perhaps we should start a letter writing campaign to Honda asking them to take them BACK? I'm sure that if you mention I don't understand fuel cell technology, they'll snap right to work gathering up all those cars actually driving around by all those other people who don't understand the technology and take them all back to Japan until we can be educated enough to....want them...back....again?
I can see it now, "Who Killed The Fuel Cell Clarity" and top of the list, "The people driving them didn't understand the technology, and when Honda became aware that their customers weren't all fuel cell engineers they repossessed all the cars and crushed them".
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
Quote:
People not buying a car because they are waiting for the financial world to settle is different than people not being able to get a loan.
I've actually heard a lot from car dealerships that people are having troubling getting loans for cars. It's not just waiting for things to settle - it's that they can't actually get loans.
WSJ
Quote:
And SUV's are now highly profitable when they can't even give them away?
Yes they are profitable on an individual basis. But because of the financial situation and economic situation, their profitability as a whole has fallen greatly.
Who said SUV's? Honda and Toyota have highly profitable cars, not just SUV's. I said traditional, highly profitable modes of transport - that's not just limited to SUV's. Try reading that again, ok?
Quote:
now that they are mass produced and being driven around California the best we have left is....
Wait? Now they are mass produced? Where? This thread is about Honda saying it will be a DECADE before they are mass produced.
Quote:
Honda says it will be a decade before the Clarity enters mass production
So which hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is being mass produced? The latest figures I've seen have been 200 vehicles as of last year! That is your definition of "mass produced"?
And my name is 3aidlillahi. Not 2aidlillahi. Still haven't learned past the number "2" yet? _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
3aidlillahi wrote:
Quote:
now that they are mass produced and being driven around California the best we have left is....
Wait? Now they are mass produced? Where? This thread is about Honda saying it will be a DECADE before they are mass produced.
So which hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is being mass produced? The latest figures I've seen have been 200 vehicles as of last year! That is your definition of "mass produced"?
Not mine. I just saw the titles. They want to call it mass produced, I certainly ain't going to send them nasty emails. It isn't the MSM after all.
Considering we've gone from impossible to "someone is calling them mass produced" in a couple of years....I figure they aren't near the bust they've been made out to be.
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 890 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
Quote:
Not mine.
But you're still USING that definition, making it your definition of "mass-produced".
Quote:
I just saw the titles.
Perhaps you should read more than just the titles, ok, sheeple?
Quote:
Quote:
In comments to the post on the Chevy Volt, someone talked up the Honda Clarity, the world’s first mass-produced hydrogren fuel cell car (or maybe just mass-produceable — they’re only making a few hundred of them). Other commenters correctly pointed out that mass-produced hydrogen fuel cell cars still appear to be no closer to reality than jetpacks or time travel.
For the full case against the Clarity, check out Joe Romm’s lengthy take-down. Short version: the car costs over $100,000 and is projected to remain ludicrously expensive for the foreseeable future; electric cars are likely to be more energy-efficient in the long run for fundamental reasons; and good luck finding a hydrogen fueling station within 700 miles of your house.
Mass-produced means that the cars have already been produced (thus the 'd' at the end) not that they could be produced. Since only a few hundred of them have been, no one in their right mind would claim that hydrogen cars have been mass-produced.
Quote:
I figure they aren't near the bust they've been made out to be.
"I figure..." What great scientific terminology. You have clearly convinced everyone here with your great understanding of the markets and the technology. _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
3aidlillahi wrote:
For the full case against the Clarity, check out Joe Romm’s lengthy take-down. Short version: the car costs over $100,000 and is projected to remain ludicrously expensive for the foreseeable future; electric cars are likely to be more energy-efficient in the long run for fundamental reasons; and good luck finding a hydrogen fueling station within 700 miles of your house.
Matt Savinar wrote in his book that fuel cell cars would cost $1 Million dollars. That was in 2004. So....in 4 years, the price has dropped 90%. Go do some math and tell me, how many more years before that price hits the median price paid for a car in America?
I realize that this avalanche of oncoming technology and price changes are disheartening, but just because you don't like it doesn't make their existence invalid.
3aidlillahi wrote:
Mass-produced means that the cars have already been produced (thus the 'd' at the end) not that they could be produced. Since only a few hundred of them have been, no one in their right mind would claim that hydrogen cars have been mass-produced.
Lots of those people keep saying it. I googled up like 3 or 4 other references, I found another 3 or 4 which said "almost mass produced". Seems like this point of dispute isn't just limited to you and I.
3aidlillahi wrote:
Quote:
I figure they aren't near the bust they've been made out to be.
"I figure..." What great scientific terminology. You have clearly convinced everyone here with your great understanding of the markets and the technology.
I don't need to convince anyone of anything....they can stand on a street corner in LA and get run over by one of these things NOW...seems kind of silly pretending that they don't exist, can't exist, or whatever other shucking and jiving is required when something which was once a pipe dream, suddenly becomes reality on public streets. It takes the entire "end of suburbia" thing and pitches it right out the window, the only question now being, the people who can continue to drive non polluting, hydrogen powered cars, what will be the cost to them? The question certainly isn't about technology, practicality, or any of the esoteric things which have been posted on this website and others for years.....deal with reality, or reality will deal with you in the form of running you over by a fuel celled powered car on the streets of LA.
I realize why there are complaints of course, it can be disheartening to see our fantasies of the collapse of the modern ICE powered transport system go right out the window in just a few years, but its not like we didn't see it coming, assuming we were paying attention of course. In the meantime, if you live in California, WATCH OUT!! Wouldn't want you to get hurt by these impossible dreams of the automotive industry and Hondas total disregard for your view as to what things they should, or should not, be providing to the non gasoline powered motoring public.
Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Honda Clarity update
SOS - like I said - if you're arguing that fuel cells cars will ever be made in any volume, you don't understand the technological limitations.
I am intimately familiar with fuel cells/electrolyzers. I can diagram for you how the hydrogen is transported across the membrane and how the electron runs around the circuit.
Look man, the main issues are:
Fuel cell cost - platinum catalyst is never going to come down in price.
Hydrogen infrastructure - never going to build up a multi trillion dollar infrastructure.
Hydrogen supply - never going to be worth burning the primary energy source to make hydrogen, and never going to be sufficient "alternatives" to make eletrolyzers worth it.
Bottom line, running cars directly on coal would be more technologically feasible.
It's a dead end. Don't let your scientific ignorance serve as the sole support for your cornucopian pipe dreams. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
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