I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
Quote:
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn _________________ 500 MPH into a brick wall - me
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 2106 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
Roccland wrote:
Quote:
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Solzhenitsyn was a butt licking bourgeoisie who was all for the crap that got us into this mess...the free market. Beware of fifth columnists!
It's either socialism (with a jack boot if needs be) or barbarism! There's no in between. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4886 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
americandream wrote:
It's either socialism (with a jack boot if needs be) or barbarism! There's no in between.
There is no doubt we'll face this choice before too long. The Machine seems to be heading to socialism ... not the kind we want, AD, but a twisted form of national socialism instead. _________________ Got Dharma?
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 1986 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
americandream wrote:
Roccland wrote:
Quote:
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Solzhenitsyn was a butt licking bourgeoisie who was all for the crap that got us into this mess...the free market. Beware of fifth columnists!
It's either socialism (with a jack boot if needs be) or barbarism! There's no in between.
Well USA is heading towards fullblown socialism. It wasn't pretty in USSR, China, Vietnam, Cambodia and it ain't going to be fun now either. Personally I don't understand why people are so keen to give up their freedoms to some politbureau of fat cats deciding who gets a food coupon and who gets sent to internment camp. _________________ It's not a bailout, it's a buy-in" - Nancy Pelosi
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 2106 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
Micki wrote:
americandream wrote:
Roccland wrote:
Quote:
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Solzhenitsyn was a butt licking bourgeoisie who was all for the crap that got us into this mess...the free market. Beware of fifth columnists!
It's either socialism (with a jack boot if needs be) or barbarism! There's no in between.
Well USA is heading towards fullblown socialism. It wasn't pretty in USSR, China, Vietnam, Cambodia and it ain't going to be fun now either. Personally I don't understand why people are so keen to give up their freedoms to some politbureau of fat cats deciding who gets a food coupon and who gets sent to internment camp.
Why attack the idea of a society living within it's needs (means)? Socialism per se is merely an idea as to how we manage our society, as is capitalism. These attacks are surreal, especially when we are living at a time when the only democratic choices we have are between variations of the free market (with its propensity to socialise monumantal fiscal and environmental failures for generations to come). We can see the failures cascading by the day. Have we, as a generation, no qualms about foisting these failures on our children and grandchildren, some of which, such as environmental degradation, are likely to be terminal? _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13065 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
In my locale, the phone service and electric service are socialist - that is, run by user-owned cooperatives. So far, I don't see any "politbureau" endangering us here. These cooperatives are decades old.
And this is in Texas. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
Ludi wrote:
In my locale, the phone service and electric service are socialist - that is, run by user-owned cooperatives. So far, I don't see any "politbureau" endangering us here. These cooperatives are decades old.
And this is in Texas.
The difference is that cooperatives are voluntary. The politbureau's method of control is violence.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5664 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
mattduke wrote:
Ludi wrote:
In my locale, the phone service and electric service are socialist - that is, run by user-owned cooperatives. So far, I don't see any "politbureau" endangering us here. These cooperatives are decades old.
And this is in Texas.
The difference is that cooperatives are voluntary. The politbureau's method of control is violence.
Ideas which work wonderfully on a small scale don't always transfer well to larger scales. Localized socialism may work okay because the interests of the people (and the ecosystem, for that matter) in a given area are similar. On the scale of millions of people, though - forget it!
But I don't think this was the intended significance of Roccland's original post. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
It's selfishness and refusal to co-operate that causes the forceful authoritarian socialism.
eg. I've got a lot more land than I need, and I'm not going to share with anyone. Oh right then we'll just have to take it into common ownership then.
If people co-operate it doesn't have to be jack booted. _________________ Live, Love, Learn, Leave Legacy.....oh and have a Laugh while you're doing it!
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 1986 Location: Australia
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: The cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
americandream wrote:
Micki wrote:
americandream wrote:
Roccland wrote:
Quote:
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
- The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Solzhenitsyn was a butt licking bourgeoisie who was all for the crap that got us into this mess...the free market. Beware of fifth columnists!
It's either socialism (with a jack boot if needs be) or barbarism! There's no in between.
Well USA is heading towards fullblown socialism. It wasn't pretty in USSR, China, Vietnam, Cambodia and it ain't going to be fun now either. Personally I don't understand why people are so keen to give up their freedoms to some politbureau of fat cats deciding who gets a food coupon and who gets sent to internment camp.
Why attack the idea of a society living within it's needs (means)? Socialism per se is merely an idea as to how we manage our society, as is capitalism. These attacks are surreal, especially when we are living at a time when the only democratic choices we have are between variations of the free market (with its propensity to socialise monumantal fiscal and environmental failures for generations to come). We can see the failures cascading by the day. Have we, as a generation, no qualms about foisting these failures on our children and grandchildren, some of which, such as environmental degradation, are likely to be terminal?
I'm just saying see what socialism has brought. Any reason to think next time will be different?
Basically socialism is no different from Fascism. A small fat elite with priviligies deciding what they think is best.
Secondly, America has not been a free market for a long time.
So it is hard to compare what is happening now to what would have been the case with the free market.
Anyway, what i do like about the ideas of a truly free market capitalism is that 1) I can have some ownership. No dictator in Moscow, Washington or Canberra decides if and what I can own.
Secondly, a free market is allowed to react and adjust to market environment. Letting recessions happen when they are needed flushing out bad business prevents these house of cards scenarios that we have now.
Basically free markets operate according to law of nature. The strong productive survive. Now what the bankers and politicians want to surivive survises, what they want to surpress they surpress, what they want to opress they opress, what they simply want they invade and take. All nicely backed by fiat dream money than funds any crazy schemes they may cook up. _________________ It's not a bailout, it's a buy-in" - Nancy Pelosi
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