I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
The Associated Press
NEW YORK (AP) — In a sign of the times, the National Debt Clock in New York City has run out of digits to record the growing figure. As a short-term fix, the digital dollar sign on the billboard-style clock near Times Square has been switched to a figure — the "1" in $10 trillion. It's marking the federal government's current debt at about $10.2 trillion.
The Durst Organization says it plans to update the sign next year by adding two digits. That will make it capable of tracking debt up to a quadrillion dollars.
The late Manhattan real estate developer Seymour Durst put the sign up in 1989 to call attention to what was then a $2.7 trillion debt.
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
RSFB wrote:
Terminator wrote:
That will make it capable of tracking debt up to a quadrillion dollars.
That should cover it for a couple more years!
If that. _________________ Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destory health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality.
Joined: Sep 09, 2008 Posts: 153 Location: Hobbiton, but it's looking more like Mordor by the day...oh! hey Sauron, I didn't see you behind me!
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
Instead of placing two more digits over on the end, they should just place a banner that states IOU over the whole thing...the American people are certainly good for it.
I know, that you know, that they know, they can never, and don't have plans to pay it back... _________________ "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."....Albert Einstein
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
Tyler_JC wrote:
We're going to have higher taxes and fewer government services...permanently.
The higher taxes thing was inevitable. We have, basically, the lowest top tax rates of the last 70 years. The top marginal rate was 91% under Ike and Truman, and 50% for almost the entire Reagan administration. We're arguing now betweeen 30, 35, and 39%. That ain't gonna help.
But, no, we're really humped here. The national debt is too obese for shock therapy. Consider what Carter and Volcker did in 1980... let inflation go, stopped holding down interest rates... jumping on the political grenade for the good of the country.
That was possible in 1980, because the national debt to GDP ratio was the lowest it had been since pre-WWII. That is not possible today, because the national debt to GDP ratio is the highest it's been since the 1950s. Quadrupling interest rates, like we did, would quadruple the pain of servicing our debt. Which, with our current tax code, means full-stop government shutdown. _________________ At 1% annual growth, human bodies will incorporate every gram in the observable universe in approximately 10,170 years.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
lawnchair wrote:
But, no, we're really humped here. The national debt is too obese for shock therapy. Consider what Carter and Volcker did in 1980... let inflation go, stopped holding down interest rates... jumping on the political grenade for the good of the country.
One possible solution is to officially devalue the US dollar. The debt outstanding remains constant, however, you're paying it back with dollars work X amount less. Pisses off your creditors, of course, but there's not much they can do. The upshots are many: it makes it MUCH harder to borrow foreign money afterwards, so that temptation is gone. It makes it harder to buy from abroad, which would prompt the regrowth of domestic industries to supply goods.
The downside is that everyone would take a real hit to their standard of living. The cheap consumer goodies would be gone, at least for a while. It also means that the trading partners of the US, like Canada, would take a real hit in terms of sales to the US, since our products would instantly become more expensive. Still, at this point, I think it's going to be part of the solution if the US is every actually going to recover. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
Nickel wrote:
One possible solution is to officially devalue the US dollar. The debt outstanding remains constant, however, you're paying it back with dollars work X amount less.
The problem is, there is no way to create dollars that aren't interest-paying debt, at least under the current Federal Reserve System scheme.
That shouldn't be hard to fix. You could print "United States Notes". Like Kennedy did in June 1963. You could also end up dead, like Kennedy did in November of 1963.
Conspiracy-theory aside, the fact that we have to pay interest on our money is the only, tenuous, check on hyperinflation. Start printing USNs, with today's Congress, and it's time to oil up the wheelbarrows. _________________ At 1% annual growth, human bodies will incorporate every gram in the observable universe in approximately 10,170 years.
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
Nickel wrote:
lawnchair wrote:
But, no, we're really humped here. The national debt is too obese for shock therapy. Consider what Carter and Volcker did in 1980... let inflation go, stopped holding down interest rates... jumping on the political grenade for the good of the country.
One possible solution is to officially devalue the US dollar. The debt outstanding remains constant, however, you're paying it back with dollars work X amount less. Pisses off your creditors, of course, but there's not much they can do. The upshots are many: it makes it MUCH harder to borrow foreign money afterwards, so that temptation is gone. It makes it harder to buy from abroad, which would prompt the regrowth of domestic industries to supply goods.
The downside is that everyone would take a real hit to their standard of living. The cheap consumer goodies would be gone, at least for a while. It also means that the trading partners of the US, like Canada, would take a real hit in terms of sales to the US, since our products would instantly become more expensive. Still, at this point, I think it's going to be part of the solution if the US is every actually going to recover.
Are you saying that we actually have to cut back now?
Wow, novel idea's in this forum!
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
All Obama's team has to do is on election night, they play the video clip from McCain three weaks ago when he says
"Our fundamentals are strong and the economy is growing.
and the elecetion will be over.
America has to tie their dollar to oil. 1 dollar gives you one gallon of gas.
There is hope of producing that much oil, so they may go for it
the facts are is they want to destabilize the dollar so this willl not happen.
Once the government steps in and runs everything, then rationing begins, and it will be done by personal ID. If you squeek, your chip gets shut off.
Now, the interesting thing is they will put this idea on the table, and then collapse the markets, and the PEOPLE WILL DEMAND THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS!
This will be POPULATION DRIVEN.
smart, no one gets in trouble and they get what they want.
wait and see. "Please, make me your slave.!"
And america will do it, not understanding what they are doing.
When it is in place, the beatings begin. Bad slave, bad, bad, slave.
Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
This is why we needed global markets, to tie everyone together, that is why NAFTA was pushed so hare, so when the markets go down, they ALL go down. Everyone demanding a new system..
almost here.
Totalitarian measures will not be forced on society, it will be demanded by the people...
Joined: Mar 18, 2008 Posts: 393 Location: Upstate New York
Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Re: NYC National Debt Clock runs out of digits
ColonProwell wrote:
Once the government steps in and runs everything, then rationing begins, and it will be done by personal ID. If you squeek, your chip gets shut off.
The day after this is in place the biggest black market you have ever seen will pop up. Both in chip manipulation and black market gas. Of course you probably thought prohibition worked for alcohol too. _________________ Arsenal
The tragedy of modern war is that the young men die fighting each other - instead of their real enemies back home in the capitals. - Edward Abbey
A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
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