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fastbike
Heavy Crude
Joined: Sep 13, 2004
Posts: 142
Location: New Zealand
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 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| nth wrote: | | The people advocating for Hydrogen are hoping technology breakthroughs in solar, ocean, and wind. |
Take a look at the European Fuel Cell Forum for a better understanding of the physics behind the myth of the hydrogen economy - and why in the future, the losses associated with the hydrogen economy will not be acceptable.
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nth
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 1976
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| fastbike wrote: | | Take a look at the European Fuel Cell Forum for a better understanding of the physics behind the myth of the hydrogen economy - and why in the future, the losses associated with the hydrogen economy will not be acceptable. |
Wow, if you use renewable energy to make hydrogen fuel cells and then use the cells to power a light bulb, you will only get 25% of the energy versus renewable energy directly wired to the light bulb, according to that link. Of course, they didn't use a light bulb as an example.
I didn't know the loss is so great. It further substantiate my belief that there is not enough renewable energy possible with current technology to power all our energy needs. It is becoming a technical issue rather than political or economic. The way I see it. |
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lorenzo
Fission
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 2228
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Please take a look at the thread "Big Battery Breakthrough".
The future is not hydrogen, because it is a big energy loser.
The distant future is pure electric vehicles with super fast recharge batteries getting their electricity from clean nuclear and renewables.
The near future is in clean biodiesel-electric hybrids.
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ThinkGeek
Tar Sands
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Joined: Mar 29, 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Chicagoland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Ding! Thank god for Nuclear! If anyone reads Wired, you may be familiar with "Pebble" Bed reactor technology. This type of reactor is incredibly safe, cannot meltdown, and generates masssive amounts of hydrogen.
Try this link: link
or the MIT site: MIT
This reactor, however generates not as much power as conventional nukes, but it is cheaper, and the reactors can be put together like legos, which means that individual municipalities can run their own plants.
Even if hydrogen is a major "energy loser" these reactors produce so much hydrogen, it won't matter.
If this works in South Africa, I would much like to see it in the US.[ |
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JoeW
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 608
Location: The Pit of Despair
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| lorenzo wrote: | | The distant future is pure electric vehicles with super fast recharge batteries getting their electricity from clean nuclear and renewables. |
I agree. The technology for this is a lot closer to acceptably replacing fossil-fueled cars than hydrogen fuel-cells, especially where it really counts--price. The only real problem is that no one is producing electric cars for public consumption...yet. When GM leased the EV1 in California, I think the actual cost of the car was in the ballpark of $40,000. That's a lot better than the million-dollar fuel cell drivetrains seen only in concept cars.
Full disclosure: I work as a contractor at an electric utility company. |
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DriveElectric
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 639
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| lorenzo wrote: | | The distant future is pure electric vehicles with super fast recharge batteries getting their electricity from clean nuclear and renewables. |
I think the future is electric scooters. See the scooter topic on Vectrix for details. Electric cars are still a huge waste energy for daily commuters going from home to work.
I think most families will have two electric scooters for daily use and perhaps one plug-in hybrid electric vehicle for the occasions when trasport is needed for 3 or 4 people, or when there is bad weather that makes the scooter difficult to use. There will be a lot more bicycles around. Perhaps the recumbent bikes that people have been posting.
The future will certainly be a lot less convienent for everyone. |
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nth
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 1976
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| DriveElectric wrote: | I think most families will have two electric scooters for daily use and perhaps one plug-in hybrid electric vehicle for the occasions when trasport is needed for 3 or 4 people, or when there is bad weather that makes the scooter difficult to use. There will be a lot more bicycles around. Perhaps the recumbent bikes that people have been posting.
The future will certainly be a lot less convienent for everyone. |
I am glad PO is not same as no oil.
I hate to see a society without oil with our current technology. |
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pstarr
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Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 7138
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Let's try this scenerio.
It's the Denver suburbs. The little itty-bitty electric car is not charged and It's snowing, a blizzard with minus-20 wind chill. Dad hops on his happy little scooter and drives 30 miles through the frigid white death winter. Mom hops on her scooter with little Junior in back and drives 5 miles to his school and then 15 to her job. Babs takes the third scooter to Junior College up in the mountains at 7,000 ft. They all die.
Or this:
Boston suburbs. It's freezing rain. Dad has an important business meeting--deal is closing. He's in a suit and gets the electric car. Mom has an important business meeting and gets the scooter and a pink slip.
I live in sunny California and even here this wouldn't work. Sometimes it rains for weeks on end in the winter and it is chilly. Face it, the suburbs ain't cut out for Scooters.
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nth
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Feb 24, 2005
Posts: 1976
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| pstarr, I like your scenarios, but I disagree. I think those people are wimps. I went on vacations to snow cover places and they travel by skiing or snowmobile and are always exposed to the elements. They just need to be tough, I guess. |
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Wildwell
Fission
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 2080
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| lorenzo wrote: | Please take a look at the thread "Big Battery Breakthrough".
The future is not hydrogen, because it is a big energy loser.
The distant future is pure electric vehicles with super fast recharge batteries getting their electricity from clean nuclear and renewables.
The near future is in clean biodiesel-electric hybrids. |
I think you're right BUT the charging must come from somewhere. So I'll predict smaller, lighter, more short distance cars. The biggest problem is grid capacity. If everyone started using the public power supply then it wouldn’t hold up very long and there’s the decline of natural gas to consider. But I think you are right about the way it will go, it makes a lot more sense that rebuilding everything for hydrogen. |
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Riddick
Heavy Crude
Joined: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 435
Location: Hiding from the All-Seeing Eye
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: GM to built "fleet" of Hydrogen vehicles |
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Christ, it's taken them long enough: link
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big_rc
Heavy Crude
Joined: Jul 17, 2004
Posts: 490
Location: Amerika (most of the time)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Don't believe the hype! This story is a joke.
88 million bucks to build 40 cars. Hell, those "cars" cost more than an ultra-deluxe Bentley. Also they will demonstrate the technology in 2009. Why is it going to take them so damn long to build 40 freakin fuel cell cars?
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I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank |
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Wildwell
Fission
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 2080
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ThinkGeek wrote: | Ding! Thank god for Nuclear!
If anyone reads Wired, you may be familiar with "Pebble" Bed reactor technology. This type of reactor is incredibly safe, cannot meltdown, and generates masssive amounts of hydrogen.
Try this link: link
or the MIT site:MIT
This reactor, however generates not as much power as conventional nukes, but it is cheaper, and the reactors can be put together like legos, which means that individual municipalities can run their own plants.
Even if hydrogen is a major "energy loser" these reactors produce so much hydrogen, it won't matter.
If this works in South Africa, I would much like to see it in the US.[ |
The problem is psychological with Nuclear:
First up, there is no way you would get nuclear plants built in every town. People are not even keen on wind turbines (which I happen to like) let alone nuclear power plants. You still have waste as well which is problematic.
Second. The US (and other nations) doesn't want to see nuclear proliferation, especially in the Middle East. Effectively a nuclear future would mean "up yours" to some nations, which would cause further resentment and unrest. |
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RealityCheckBounced
Heavy Crude
Joined: Jan 27, 2005
Posts: 106
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Not to mention there's no point. |
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gnm
Expert
Joined: Jul 08, 2004
Posts: 2721
Location: plundering eco-villages
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Oh yeah - that'll help - when the hell are people gonna wake up and realize that HYDROGEN IS NOT A FUEL SOURCE!
man what a bunch of idiots - wasting 88mil on that...
-G  |
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