"The Bottomless Well" Peter Huber & Mark Mill

big_rc

OK all of you peak oilers out there. Here is the book that is a direct frontal attack on the whole concept and theory of peak oil. Also this book is going to cause alot of grief for everyone here so it is best if we begin to dissect this book. This is going to be the book that everyone is going to point to in refutation of Peak Oil so it would be best to get familar with all of the arguments.

I have just started reading this book and it is pretty interesting so far. His main contention (to this point) is that we have virtually limitless amounts of fuel available to us. The problem is that we just don't know how to use it properly. Therefore this is the good old "technology will save us" argument. I am starting to delve into the meat of the book and will post reviews as I go along.

Anyone else reading this book?
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Grasshopper · Tar Sands Joined: Aug 18, 2004 Posts: 69 Location: Canada

Thanks RC
I'll be watching for your review. I don't think I'll read it unless you say I should. A news item was posted here today, and some of the comments posted get right to the point; that it's a pretty hokey premise.
http://www.peakoil.com/article3025.html
Inside the World of Oil Price Manipulation
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NeoPeasant · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject:

Consider the source. Peter Huber works for a major right wing propaganda engine called the Manhattan Institute. Look them up in the Disinfopedia.
Do they actually believe this crap themselves? Of course not. But it serves their purposes to have the masses believe it.

nero · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject:

Thanks big_RC, I read it a bit in the bookstore and considered buying it purely to do a book review here but then decided it's main point as you say is to have faith in technology and the powers of human innovation, which is hardly worth writing a book review about let alone a book.

Give a critical eye to any hanky panky they pull with numbers. As I recall their graphs were sometimes designed to be misleading.

crude_intentions · Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject:

Let me guess this book has either 1 or all 3 of these arguments in support of thier Idea's

1. Abiotic Oil, and their main argument for that is something to the effect of:
"There were never enough Dinosaurs alive in the history of the planet to make the amount of Oil We find today" Laughing

2. The Wonders of Technology and Hydrogen shall save us all, and give no reasonable explanation as to how. Rolling Eyes

3. Jesus will be Back soon so thier's no need to worry about running out of Oil, So Repent, Be Baptized and join the GOP, before Judgement Day Decends upon your Heathen Ass.

Sys1 · Intermediate Crude Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 680

"Bottomless well?" Well, sorry to be rude, but we must admit that Peter Huber and Mark Mill are bottomless assholes. Razz

big_rc · Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:

Wow. Judging by the responses this is going to be a tough crowd to win over. OK lets start at the beginning.

The authors propound seven energy "heresies"

1) The cost of energy as we use it has less and less to do with the cost of fuel.
2) "Waste" is virtuous.
3) The more efficient our technology, the more energy we consume.
4) The competitive advantage in manufacturing is now swinging descisevly back towards the US.
5) Human demand for energy is insatiable.
6) The raw fuels are NOT running out. They are infinite.
7) America's relentless pursuit of high-grade energy does not add chaos to the global environement, it restores order.

In the first chapter, the authors go on to detail why they believe energy supplies are abundant.

hawkeye0 · Coal Joined: Mar 10, 2005 Posts: 4

I listened to Peter Huber being interviewed on an NPR station in Wisconsin.
Here are the highlights:
Several times during the discussion he espoused using the democratic process to solve the energy issue via elections, etc.

Said we have a century's worth of oil from tar sands located in Canada (also mentioned Venezuela). Stating that there is 3 trillion gallons worth of recoverable oil. The problem currently being that the Saudis produce oil for $5 per barrel and the Canadians via tar sands are producing oil at between $15 to $20 a barrel.

SUVs are not necessarily gas inefficient if people car people. The reason being that you can have 6 or 7 people in the vehicle to leverage the money you spend on gas.

The U.S. has a century's supply of coal.

Uranium is a clean energy which produces a small amount of waste which can be buried. But further development of this avenue of energy was derailed by environmentalists.

Also mentioned that any energy alternative, i.e. solar and wind, have an environmental impact. He was not specific on this point.

During the Clinton administration administration a BTU tax was proposed and was not supported by either Republicans or Democrats.

Increased conservation and efficency will not solve our energy issues.

Oil only accounts as 40% of the energy we consume.

Energy extraction is fundamental ability of man.

Oil was at a historic low 6 years ago. The price volatility today is driven by instability in the Middle East and increased demand in China and India. Did not mention a constricting of supply.

Coincidentally, I believe it was announced on Monday the same program will host Tom Mast? author of "Over A Barrel".

big_rc · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject:

Well I just finished the book and it was pretty disappointing (to say the least). Only a fraction of the book covers petroleum and the authors push mightily for nuclear energy expansion. They do not mention oil depletion or anything of the sorts. The arguments in this book boil down primarily to mankind's ability to utilize the energy sources at hand. So in a roundabout way, they strongly believe in technology and mankind inventiveness.

This book would be very hard to debate because it is true that mankind's inventiveness got us to this point. You would have to be a total Luditte to think otherwise. Anyway, this book is really not worth reading. There are better pro-technology arguments on this site.
_________________
Simon's Law: Everything put together falls apart sooner or later.

I don't think of all the misery, but of all the beauty that still remains.--Anne Frank

dduck · Coal Joined: Nov 11, 2004 Posts: 16 Location: Oahu, Hawaii

Lots and lots of facts. Lots of old ill-advised predictions that proved wrong, therefore today's predictions are probably wrong. Very little drawing of inferences through logic using the presented facts.
I persevered because the facts were interesting.
A very good example of "technology will save us" reaction to perceived future energy problems.
Worth reading because it will be held up as the "answer" by many who are in denial about peak oil and its probable consequences.
Sees coal and nuclear as primary sources of energy in coming decades.
The subtitle "The Twilight of Fuel, The Virtue of Waste, and Why We Never Run out of Energy" refers to the eventual depletion of fossil fuel, the requirement that heat engines reject heat (and the energy losses on the way from fuel to laser beams), and the unending stream of solar energy and practically unlimited supply of dilute ores. (We just have to be clever enough to "purify" it all).