I guess you have a point that the fewer wealthy air passengers in a peak oil scenario will allow for high fares to pay for new, more efficient aircraft. Will the market be big enough however for these development programs to be a success, especially when the efficiency advantage over existing aircraft is only 15 - 20%? The present fleet could easily handle that requirement by simply operating at 100% load factor versus the 75% common today.
"Want a horse Dad purchases a horse stud and the girls get a bunch of em. Turn 17 and new sporty car is sitting in the 6 car garage. Need new computer, $3000 gets paid up. Go home to visit for a weekend and drive back with several thousand dollars of designer clothes of which less than half is ever worn." This does not descibe middle class america and I doubt it describes middlle anywhere in the world. This may describe someone in the top 10% but that is about it. The "middle class" shown on TV is hardly ever actually that. I remember when the cosby show was on T.V. They were a "middle class" family. A successful doctor and a lawyer, not a middle class family.
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 220 Location: Queensland, Australia
Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:50 am Post subject:
MJpete, I wasn't really meaning this particular person was 'Middle class', she is the worst example of unknowing consumerism that I am aware of. Not that she is a bad person, in fact she is geat.
I was trying to emphasise the incredible disconnect some people have with wealth and want. Her family is effectively rolling in it, I have seen the family weekly cash flow and it ranges from 8-20 000 dollars (seasonal effects) of profit through their businesses. But the income is locked up in a fairly transport laden industry with high discretionary effects. While they are not going to starve anytime soon they will not be buying new his & hers vehicles yearly in 5 years time. Their children have little Idea of a want.
I agree with regards to the popular misconception in the media of what the middle class is. Those of my generation (25-35) who are locked into status see the media continuously describing middle class as being about 30 000 dollars more than they actually earn. This just pushes up debt and desires to earn more money.
The 'Cosby Show' as middle class, is a nasty media joke. I checked what a OBY and Lawyer would of earned in new york in the late 80's early 90's and it was in the range of $250 000. Today it would easily be over $400 000 possibly much more. Not in any way, a middle class situation. Face it the massive brownstone could go for 5 million plus if I read my NY real estate guides correctly. No middle class there at all.
On the comment about 10-15% occupancy on airliners, that is common based on running costs. I did an exercise a bunch of years ago when I worked for a coach travel company. To take a 52 seat coach to the south of France from our base in the southern UK (1000 road miles) we needed 12 paying passengers to cover the whole cost, the rest was profit.
Interestingly we did a few weekend trips by plane & a charter 737 only required 20 paying passengers to cover the same trip from Gatwick to Nice, obviously the cost was about 4 times for the plane in totaol, but so was the fare per passenger !
Both of these were for return trips, 2000 road miles or approx 1200 air miles ! _________________ The roller coaster is still climbing, but it's near the top now !
Where there's a WAR there's a WAY
Airbus is planning to take Boeing's 7E7 head-on with the A350
Quote:
Airbus is aiming its long-range derivative of the successful A330 family squarely at Boeing's attempts to dominate the 250-to-300-seat market with its 787 "Dreamliner".
And while the Europeans may have launched their aircraft later than the US plane, they believe this will ultimately give them the upper hand.
Airbus believes its A350-800 version will have about 10 per cent more seat capacity than the equivalent 787 and about 600 nautical miles more range.
It has also been working hard to demonstrate lower fuel burn per seat, lower maintenance costs per seat and, ultimately, lower cash costs per seat.
It does not say how annoying it is going to be to sit in the waiting area with 800 people with their crying kids, big novelty hats, and poodles stuffed into those little travel bags.....most airport gate lounges are set up to comfortably accommodate about 50 people for this.
Also no talk about how long it is going to take 800 people to wait in line at the check in, and then board the plane and stuff 800 items in the overhead compartment.
This thing does not say how many people per bathroom, but you gotta wonder......
Then the whole thing in reverse on landing, unloading, etc.
It may be nice and efficient for the companies who are doing the actual flying, but I see an extra hour of annoyance on each end of the flight for the passengers because of the size of this thing.
BOEING has agreed that its new high-speed plane would use more fuel than
existing airliners but said there was “plenty of fossil fuel still around”.
The Sonic Cruiser will burn up to 35 per cent more fuel than other planes in
order to accelerate to just below the speed of sound (760mph).
The American aviation company accepted that the extra fuel would increase
carbon emissions but said the environmental price was worth paying to save time for busy executives
It does not say how annoying it is going to be to sit in the waiting area with 800 people with their crying kids, big novelty hats, and poodles stuffed into those little travel bags.....most airport gate lounges are set up to comfortably accommodate about 50 people for this.
Also no talk about how long it is going to take 800 people to wait in line at the check in, and then board the plane and stuff 800 items in the overhead compartment.
This thing does not say how many people per bathroom, but you gotta wonder......
Then the whole thing in reverse on landing, unloading, etc.
It may be nice and efficient for the companies who are doing the actual flying, but I see an extra hour of annoyance on each end of the flight for the passengers because of the size of this thing.
Most airport lounges are built for 50 people?? where are you from Hicksville?
Most planes carry up to 300 passengers, not 50.
are you that stupid who believes that there is going to be a long line of 800 people standing behind the counter?
no this is no SONY playstation release in America where 800 people line up outside stores at midnight.
This plane needs special airport modification. The buyers of this plane are aware of that and are going to modify their airport.
Just like there use to be special building for concorde, there is going to be special gateway for this plane at the airports.
You dont have to worry about it because this is not flying in the US, because over here we believe in 1 plane for each citizen.
5585 km trip for 500 passengers (London to New York)
3 liters/passenger/100km
So this whale can take me and 499 of my buddies from hither to thither using 83,755.00 liters of Jet fuel, which is 22104 gallons for us Yanks, give or take a gallon or two.
The A380 can hold 81,890 gallons. That's a heck of a safety margin. I would bet the figures quoted are for the best possible performance at altitude and cruise, and not "average" for a complete trip, with taxiing and queueing.
Vehicles get better mileage when they are allowed to exclude starting, stopping, hill climbs, acceleration, etc. too. Perhaps I don't understand the fuel figures. Am I missing something?
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: why of course!
Yes you must be right, I expect that these figures are for high altitude cruise. Turbofans are notoriously thirsty at low altitudes, takeoff power is massively more than cruise power and thus burns more fuel, and idling is also ridiculous.
As a comparison, I have read of small gas turbines for experimentals burning ten galllons per hour at idle, while at max output of 200 hp burning easily 20-30 GPH.
Piggy, piggy!
Still though, I have heard that litres per mile per passenger is low like the poster claimed, for other airliners also.
The well to do will always be able to fly, that's just how it is
Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 1203 Location: Left the cult
Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: just...one..more....aghh...post!!
drew wrote:
Am I at a hundred yet~heavy crude here I come!
Tsk! Making posts just to get your number up! I would never do that.
I'm unable to get worked up in a patriotic frenzy about Airbus versus Boeing, but I think the A380 will be a dinosaur of the Oil Age (pterosaur perhaps?).
The mindset "we are losing money on big things - let's make them bigger!" is a sign of impending collapse due to dimishing returns. _________________ It's all downhill from here
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