Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: Don't Panic Over There !!
Seems like these posts have a USA bias, so here's one from Europe -
My grandfather was a Greek who grew onions + olives on his land which he then exporter on his own sailing ship to Turkey -
He and his community were happy raising their chickens, goats, and pigs -
The Greeks, who created democracy B.C., have lived through Turkish + Nazi occupation - but their community, values, beliefs, and core ideology survived !!
Looks like a lot of posts on this PO forum are from USA - don't panic life will go on - and perhaps in the near future we can all grow onions + olives together -
i.e. nature will revert to the lowest common denominator = simplicity -
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 3:34 am Post subject:
it is mainly usa biased - i think mainly because people in the usa are most vulnerable. i mean, using 22 million barrels of oil a DAY?!?!! bloody hell. im in scotland and i think we are still pretty much self sufficient in oil i think - though not for too much longer, but i think scotland only uses about 0.25 million barrels of oil a day - not too sure on that one.
also, the USA is a bit of a mess - all roads, no paths to walk on, and you need a car to do anything. it will be pretty hard for the average american, surrounded by nothing but roads and wasteland, to have a different lifestyle.
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: Yeah.
Yeah, I have to agree that Americans are the most vulnerable. For the most part, you must have a car. People like to think of it as a freedom - but when you tell people the idea that it is a ball-and-chain, it gets you weird looks. (Complaining about money for insurance and gas usually gets you back on the right side of the people. But I now also blame the automobile for the fact that it makes our infrastructure and our way of life be so damned abstract and absurd.)
And then, there's agriculture. Being in Illinois I have seen large spaces of suburban sprawl as well as large corn fields as well as industrial factories (in Chicago). All based on cheap oil. Kinda hard to picture a place to run off to relatively locally...
Until this past year I wasn't quite ready to accept the fact that the line, "protecting American interests" was based on making people give us cheap oil, but now it seems like it historically has been and the Neocon's are an apt group of people that hopefully we can shift all the blame to for decades of foreign policy which have been disgusting really... at least that's what I hope will happen as WW3 comes about.. USA vs THE WORLD~! _________________ https://www.videogamevoters.org/http://www.savetheinternet.com/http://www.votersforpeace.us/index.jsp www.911myths.com - To the 9/11-ers, give it some thought.
I guess us Europeans have 'Created' the developed world through sweat, tears, and hardship and we are still tough cookies - British stiff upper lip, Falklands Wars, Balkan Wars, etc.
In modern times, the UK created the 'British Empire' and the industrial revolution as well as USA, Australia, N.Z., etc., - and fought bloody wars, on a Global scale. Indeed, the UK made the industrial world off its own back -
The ancient Greeks had their trading empires, wars, laws, and society and yet are still the biggest shipowning nation on earth today even though they suffered a great deal !
By contrast, the American citizen seems to be a more 'risk averse', introverted, at home (don't think many even have a passport), and incapable of 'fending' for themselves without a supermarket, airconditioning, pathetic talk-shows, and a big V8 in the drive. Also they have high levels of obesity + introduced 'junk food' via Globalisation - all of which has made a vast unproductive underclass who cannot compete on a global scale with the likes of China or India, even given their advantages of cheap oil - God knows how they will survive PO -
The Europeans are a diverse + strong mix of cultures who will have the social policies to overcome PO, as well as the Euro's to buy plentiful hydrocarbon supplies from N.Africa + Russia - via LPG imports by pipeline + tanker.
Yes, Europe can extend its own empire south towards Africa as well as eastwards to Russia thus ensuring plentiful energy, commodities, as well as labour -
Additionally, France has a high proportion of Nuclear power stations (as well as technology) and we can easily bring more power on-line via UK + Eastern Europe + Russia.
Europeans also have massive technological expertise, especially from Eastern Europe, and spare capacity to divest resources into alternate energy production like geothermal, tidal, wind power, etc.
Don't worry, we Europeans have the Diplomacy to prosper when PO comes !
I guess us Europeans have 'Created' the developed world through sweat, tears, and hardship and we are still tough cookies - British stiff upper lip, Falklands Wars, Balkan Wars, etc.
In modern times, the UK created the 'British Empire' and the industrial revolution as well as USA, Australia, N.Z., etc., - and fought bloody wars, on a Global scale. Indeed, the UK made the industrial world off its own back -
The ancient Greeks had their trading empires, wars, laws, and society and yet are still the biggest shipowning nation on earth today even though they suffered a great deal !
By contrast, the American citizen seems to be a more 'risk averse', introverted, at home (don't think many even have a passport), and incapable of 'fending' for themselves without a supermarket, airconditioning, pathetic talk-shows, and a big V8 in the drive. Also they have high levels of obesity + introduced 'junk food' via Globalisation - all of which has made a vast unproductive underclass who cannot compete on a global scale with the likes of China or India, even given their advantages of cheap oil - God knows how they will survive PO -
The Europeans are a diverse + strong mix of cultures who will have the social policies to overcome PO, as well as the Euro's to buy plentiful hydrocarbon supplies from N.Africa + Russia - via LPG imports by pipeline + tanker.
Yes, Europe can extend its own empire south towards Africa as well as eastwards to Russia thus ensuring plentiful energy, commodities, as well as labour -
Additionally, France has a high proportion of Nuclear power stations (as well as technology) and we can easily bring more power on-line via UK + Eastern Europe + Russia.
Europeans also have massive technological expertise, especially from Eastern Europe, and spare capacity to divest resources into alternate energy production like geothermal, tidal, wind power, etc.
Don't worry, we Europeans have the Diplomacy to prosper when PO comes !
also, the USA is a bit of a mess - all roads, no paths to walk on, and you need a car to do anything. it will be pretty hard for the average american, surrounded by nothing but roads and wasteland, to have a different lifestyle.
I'm happy to say I at last agree with you 100%. We've created a hellhole here. That's why I'm happy to live in the country. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:15 am Post subject:
Quote:
I'm happy to say I at last agree with you 100%. We've created a hellhole here. That's why I'm happy to live in the country.
Yippee! We agree on something!
I've only been to America once - and it was to florida (my girlfriend at the time loved disney and she had friends there). I was absolutely amazed at the way people lived there.
We stayed in a place called lakeland which is about halfway between tampa and orlando and is mainly full of wealthier slightly older people i think. The whole place was estates of houses connected by roads (no paths to walk on), with some small lakes around (i guess thats why its called lakeland?!), and you could quickly get onto the I4 - and then all the landscape consisted of was roads, open grass areas and large mall areas with absolutely ENORMOUS car parks.
the people we were staying with didnt walk anywhere - ever. There was a walmart about 1 mile away and they drove to it. There was a shop next to the walmart which was about 50 yards away. They got back in the car, drove 50 yards, parked and went in. I couldnt understand it really.
We were a bit bored one morning, as we couldnt use the car yet (!), so we went for a walk round the neighbourhood. It was ealry AM, but still VERY HOT. We had got about 1/2 a mile and had not seen a single other person walking - just cars, and no paths either - we were walking on the road!
I just couldn't handle living somewhere like that. Without a car, you are living like a recluse!
Im very thankful i live in scotland. our roads are tiny, and places are built for access on foot. we are actually positively going out of our way to discourage car use here.
Joined: Feb 01, 2005 Posts: 197 Location: Southern Ontario
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:
ONASIS wrote:
linlithgowoil
By contrast, the American citizen seems to be a more 'risk averse', introverted, at home (don't think many even have a passport), and incapable of 'fending' for themselves without a supermarket, airconditioning, pathetic talk-shows, and a big V8 in the drive.
I don't think American history brings anything to bear when it comes to the "thoughness" of a people. I think it's a combination of wealth and power that has been in one place too long. Don't dismiss Americans as lazy and ignorant. I've made that mistake as well but there are a lot of knowing and intelligent thinking people down there that we've been trying to get out and up to Canada where they belong! I think the softness of the American belly exists, simply because of an unequal share of the worlds wealth, food and guilt. Having so much made Americans complacent and subsequently vunerable to their own media, which conspires against them, to make them even more complacent. It's a viscious cycle!
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1583 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:29 am Post subject:
linlithgowoil,
You got a very distorted view of America. Florida is where the wealthy go to retire and the area around Orlando is all relatively new and "modern" and is oriented toward the tourist trade.
Florida is really a foreign land to most Americans.
We currently live in a moderately sized city in the North West. We live in an 80 year old house on a boulevard surrounded by a park. There is more foot traffic down this tree lined green belt than cars and just behind us is a converatory and formal garden. We walk a lot here. St Augustine's is just on the other side of the park and we often walk there to mass.
Unfortunately, to be able to do any shopping we must get in the truck and drive several miles to the market. _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Im very thankful i live in scotland. our roads are tiny, and places are built for access on foot. we are actually positively going out of our way to discourage car use here.
My housemate took my partner on a narrowboat tour of England, Wales and Scotland. They just got back. They had a lovely time. They were completely impressed. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
I guess us Europeans have 'Created' the developed world through sweat, tears, and hardship and we are still tough cookies - British stiff upper lip, Falklands Wars, Balkan Wars, etc.
In modern times, the UK created the 'British Empire' and the industrial revolution as well as USA, Australia, N.Z., etc., - and fought bloody wars, on a Global scale. Indeed, the UK made the industrial world off its own back -
The ancient Greeks had their trading empires, wars, laws, and society and yet are still the biggest shipowning nation on earth today even though they suffered a great deal !
By contrast, the American citizen seems to be a more 'risk averse', introverted, at home (don't think many even have a passport), and incapable of 'fending' for themselves without a supermarket, airconditioning, pathetic talk-shows, and a big V8 in the drive. Also they have high levels of obesity + introduced 'junk food' via Globalisation - all of which has made a vast unproductive underclass who cannot compete on a global scale with the likes of China or India, even given their advantages of cheap oil - God knows how they will survive PO -
The Europeans are a diverse + strong mix of cultures who will have the social policies to overcome PO, as well as the Euro's to buy plentiful hydrocarbon supplies from N.Africa + Russia - via LPG imports by pipeline + tanker.
Yes, Europe can extend its own empire south towards Africa as well as eastwards to Russia thus ensuring plentiful energy, commodities, as well as labour -
Additionally, France has a high proportion of Nuclear power stations (as well as technology) and we can easily bring more power on-line via UK + Eastern Europe + Russia.
Europeans also have massive technological expertise, especially from Eastern Europe, and spare capacity to divest resources into alternate energy production like geothermal, tidal, wind power, etc.
Don't worry, we Europeans have the Diplomacy to prosper when PO comes !
By contrast, the American citizen seems to be a more 'risk averse', introverted, at home (don't think many even have a passport), and incapable of 'fending' for themselves without a supermarket, airconditioning, pathetic talk-shows, and a big V8 in the drive.
I don't think American history brings anything to bear when it comes to the "thoughness" of a people. I think it's a combination of wealth and power that has been in one place too long. Don't dismiss Americans as lazy and ignorant. I've made that mistake as well but there are a lot of knowing and intelligent thinking people down there that we've been trying to get out and up to Canada where they belong! I think the softness of the American belly exists, simply because of an unequal share of the worlds wealth, food and guilt. Having so much made Americans complacent and subsequently vunerable to their own media, which conspires against them, to make them even more complacent. It's a viscious cycle!
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 296 Location: Rual ID, USA, World
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject:
4StringSlinger wrote:
Quote:
Wrong
You, too, are wong.
Care to elaborate and explain why you think so?
ArimoDave _________________ I know exactly where we are;
. . . .
don't know where we're going, but no use in being late.
(Mathew Quigley [Tom Selleck])
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Panic Over There !!
ONASIS wrote:
Seems like these posts have a USA bias, so here's one from Europe -
My grandfather was a Greek who grew onions + olives on his land which he then exporter on his own sailing ship to Turkey -
He and his community were happy raising their chickens, goats, and pigs -
The Greeks, who created democracy B.C., have lived through Turkish + Nazi occupation - but their community, values, beliefs, and core ideology survived !!
Looks like a lot of posts on this PO forum are from USA - don't panic life will go on - and perhaps in the near future we can all grow onions + olives together -
i.e. nature will revert to the lowest common denominator = simplicity -
Best Wishes,
ONASIS - The Golden Greek
You, as a European and a Greek don't have to panic. You have millennia of culture to fall back on. America doesn't have this. America is basically consumer slavery based on imperial war and monetary speculation. There's nothing Americans have to fall back on when their system falls apart. They have no such thing we call "culture".
Therefor they're the only ones who should really fear the effects of PO. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Panic Over There !!
lorenzo wrote:
There's nothing Americans have to fall back on when their system falls apart. They have no such thing we call "culture". Therefor they're the only ones who should really fear the effects of PO.
heh.
My brother in law is from France. Nice guy and all, but his idea of nature is the dirt on his driveway that he tries dearly to avoid when he steps out of his BMW. I don't think the poor guy has ever been fishing or camping or walking in the wilderness. His complete disconnection from nature is symbolic of the European condition.
On the contrary, many Americans grew up outside. In and around woodlands, forests, creeks, mountains rivers and deserts. The US still has wild open spaces in many parts of the country. Europe on the other hand has been closed in, stifled. With no outlet, many Europeans escape in to drug use, extreme pornography or virtual realities while their countries are silently and incrementally islamicized by a constant influx of immigrants hostile to their way of life (witness the recent near civil war in holland over the killing of van gogh. This is before peak oil mind you).
America has its slow motion disaster called suburbia, its rampant consumerism, its obesity and waste of resources. This is what normally makes the headlines. There is a more quiet group of Americans though. The ones that brought the world the National Park System, The Wilderness Act, The Endangered Species Act. As well as Earth First and the environmental movement (thoreau, muir, abbey, brower et al.)
Much ink has been put to page on the European subjagation of the American Indian. Little has been said about the fact that some of the native culture seeped in to our own. Our fates are now sealed and intertwined. The quiet Americans are waiting in the wings, on the periphery. At the edge of civilization looking inward. They can see the writing on the wall and they know what is coming. These people will be the leaders in the new American culture that rises out of the ashes of suburbia.
I don't wish the effects of peakoil on any country, and I think both the US and Europe will suffer. However, given the choice I'll take the US. If only for the satisfaction of knowing that if I have to, I can escape. Deep in to the heart of our mountains forests or deserts. Sure, I may not make it, but in Europe, there is no escape, where metropolis becomes necropolis (city of the dead).
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