Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 3329 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: I Love Peak Oil
[Topic should read as "I love Peak Oil" - tried to use an ASCII character - need a mod to put in a fix, thanks]
Do you?
Endlessly stimulating intellectually; conspiratorial; a secret known only to a few; ruminations on the machinations of the most of profitable corporations in history; discussions on ways to prepare on one's own or for a theoretical community; all sorts of ruminations on the actions of people in times of crisis. And I could go on.
Of course the reality might not be so jolly. Still - we get a definite buzz doing all this mulling over. Don't deny it! _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I will not abide another toe.
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Re: I ♥ Peak Oil
No ... I sincerely hope that peak oil is 20-30 years away. I have kids and I want to see them grow up and have good lives.
Reading through these forums I sometimes get the the impression that some of these idiots actually want to see oil production peak, economies crash and see massive population die-offs.
Sadly I feel that we are all being misled about the full extent of our planets oil reserves.
I actually got interested in peak oil a couple of years ago when I bumped into a guy who used to work as a geologist for an oil company.
When you bump into a guy who's job it is to find oil, and that guy, with his years of experience, turns out to believe that oil production had already peaked ... then I figured I had better start paying attention.
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:15 am Post subject: Re: I ♥ Peak Oil
kokoda wrote:
No ... I sincerely hope that peak oil is 20-30 years away. I have kids and I want to see them grow up and have good lives.
Reading through these forums I sometimes get the the impression that some of these idiots actually want to see oil production peak, economies crash and see massive population die-offs.
I also have young children. I guess you rather see your children's children be miserable. I for my part can't wait till peak oil hits. The world is overpopulated and needs a break.
Joined: Mar 20, 2007 Posts: 174 Location: There is no hope for the future
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:20 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
I agree to a certain extent, I love the idea that our way of life needs to change from the current money grabbing, self serving consumerism, where one is judged as successful depending upon what one has in way of material possessions .
If PO is the catalyst for this change then so be it, maybe we can get to the utopia that we have been promised by so many for so long. I am not expecting monkey butlers and housemaid robots just some sense of kinmanship and community spirit, co-operation and camaraderie, instead of the mistrust, fear and selfishness that we have at the moment.
The UK had this type of spirit during the shared suffering of WWII, it has since been lost, maybe shared suffering will force it to return.
Unfortunately, as we have been told, 'The American Way of Life is NON Negotiable', as a non american i find that this attitude will only usher in the opposite of what we need.
I do feel for with those of us in the know who have kids, this must be even more scary.
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
idomar wrote:
I agree to a certain extent, I love the idea that our way of life needs to change from the current money grabbing, self serving consumerism, where one is judged as successful depending upon what one has in way of material possessions .
Do you think that wasn't the case before the oil age?
Same game, different toys.
Rich/Poor
King/Subject
Pharaoh/Slave
Call it what you want, it has always existed and it always will. PO will not end that.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12463 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
That "game" didn't exist in cultures which were non-civilized, which was most of them.
Status was gained through other means such as feats of strength or bravery, or amount of knowledge. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
jbeckton wrote:
idomar wrote:
I agree to a certain extent, I love the idea that our way of life needs to change from the current money grabbing, self serving consumerism, where one is judged as successful depending upon what one has in way of material possessions .
Do you think that wasn't the case before the oil age?
Same game, different toys.
Not entirely sure about that. True, there's always been rich and poor. But having money per se wasn't necessarily admired. For a long time, being a poor aristocrat was considered superior to being a rich trader. Not that I'm advocating that way of thinking, either. _________________ What are you doing about peak oil?
I am doing this
(click on the www button) v
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4343 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
That "game" didn't exist in cultures which were non-civilized, which was most of them.
Status was gained through other means such as feats of strength or bravery, or amount of knowledge.
Yes - you are spot on Ludi.
As you posted in another thread the food/population .ppt humans lived for 100s of thousands of years in a intergral relationship with nature.
Food grew...
We did not grow food.
Now and because of agriculture we have been lulled into "this is the way it has always been and is THE right way".
Well we know that agriculture was the single worst path we choose...today we now are living with its consequences. _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
roccman wrote:
Ludi wrote:
That "game" didn't exist in cultures which were non-civilized, which was most of them.
Status was gained through other means such as feats of strength or bravery, or amount of knowledge.
Yes - you are spot on Ludi.
As you posted in another thread the food/population .ppt humans lived for 100s of thousands of years in a intergral relationship with nature.
Sure, but 2 points.
1) Are you suggesting it is possible to back to hunter gatherer existence with the knowledge we have acquired?
2) Those societies were ruled like a pack of animals, the strongest man was the leader. If you wanted to question that, you fought him, you did not debate him! Harmony with nature is a very violent existence. There is no helping the sick and weak, only getting rid of them. Most people couldn’t make it in the Marines let alone a survival of the fittest lifestyle. I think that most here would prefer our current lifestyle over that because most people are weak and they would not have survived without civilization.
I do not think that is the time that idomar was suggesting but I could be wrong. Am I idomar?
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4343 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
jbeckton wrote:
Sure, but 2 points.
1) Are you suggesting it is possible to back to hunter gatherer existence with the knowledge we have acquired?
2) Those societies were ruled like a pack of animals, the strongest man was the leader. If you wanted to question that, you fought him, you did not debate him! Harmony with nature is a very violent existence. There is no helping the sick and weak, only getting rid of them. Most people couldn’t make it in the Marines let alone a survival of the fittest lifestyle. I think that most here would prefer our current lifestyle over that because most people are weak and they would not have survived without civilization.
I do not think that is the time that idomar was suggesting but I could be wrong. Am I idomar?
1) we will go back to the olduvai cliff
2) you are wrong...a tribal mentality was perfectly calibrated with the hinterlands.
and
3) we do not live in a "civilization" we live in an illusion of civility that is suspended ever so precariously with thin threads of cheap energy.
4) the destruction your "civilization" has brought to our planet will end your "civilization" and will end the lives of all living species...those left may very well wish they were dead.
You should read the End Game by Derrick Jensen.
I have made the assumption that you have read Overshoot by W. Catton...you have right JB...you have read Overshoot...yes?? _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
roccman wrote:
1) we will go back to the olduvai cliff
Read:Theory!
Quote:
At the time of Duncan's paper, the peak in per capita energy consumption was 11.15 boe/c/yr (barrels of oil equivalent per capita per year) and occurred in 1979; however, since then energy use per capita has increased beyond that level, with the most recent year providing the current peak value of 12.12 boe/c/yr[5][6]. This increase directly contradicts Postulate 2 of the most recent version of the theory, namely that "[average per capita energy] will show no growth from 1979 to circa 2008".[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_theory
roccman wrote:
3) we do not live in a "civilization" we live in an illusion of civility that is suspended ever so precariously with thin threads of cheap energy.
Reality is slipping away from you. Civilization existed long before cheap energy.
roccman wrote:
4) the destruction your "civilization" has brought to our planet will end your "civilization" and will end the lives of all living species...those left may very well wish they were dead.
Ok, now it's my civilization? These pieces were set in motion long before I got here. Life will go on at least until the sun swallows the earth.
roccman wrote:
I have made the assumption that you have read Overshoot by W. Catton...you have right JB...you have read Overshoot...yes??
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 3329 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: Re: I Love Peak Oil
roccman wrote:
Well we know that agriculture was the single worst path we choose...today we now are living with its consequences.
Wow, you're trying to out-Kunstler Kunstler. Can't go that far - we've been farming the same patches of land for thousands of years. Doesn't seem any more a mistake than hunting/gathering is "correct."
We may have given agriculture a shot before the Holocene, but the glacial environment was both widely dry and subject to drastic shifts in climate from time to time; thus no ag society could find a permanent footing, nor would it leave any traces in the archaeological record. Given how widespread agriculture is in the relatively stable Holocene era, it is tempting to conclude that our species is naturally inclined to tending crops.
Interestingly enough I see that modern humans' earliest appearance in the fossil record is right around the time of the onset of the last interglacial, the Eemian, about 130,000 years ago. Wonder if there's a connection?
Regarding this thread's topic - I mean to say that I'm fascinated with it in of itself. Aren't looking forward to living through the reality of it much, nor am I going to crank up the schadenfreude like our Mod Jack. Do enjoy Jack's stuff, though. Black humor big time. _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I will not abide another toe.
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