How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Mar 28, 2007 Posts: 337 Location: Cambs., UK
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
$100 a barrel, going once, going twice, SOLD to the suckers on Wall Street. _________________ "Nothing survives. Not your parents. Not your children. Not even stars."
-Pinbacker, Sunshine
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5348 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
Even the ever optimistic Wall Strret Journal admits OPEC has hit a wall:
Quote:
Most of OPEC's members have reached their maximum production capacity, with only Saudi Arabia having about 2 million per day surplus capacity. Iran has surplus capacity of 50,000 a day, according to the Energy Information Administration.
November 12, 2007 1:40 p.m.
Can this be made any clearer? Apparently this is not clear enough to many Wall Street analysts, and even energy analysts, who keep saying that oil is overpriced.
Granted, the price can fluctuate wildly, and it's hard to know what is 'true' value is. But apparently $95 oil is not something OPEC can change. _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5348 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
Quote:
DOE's Harbert: No Commitment From OPEC To Raise Output
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
November 12, 2007 3:01 p.m.
WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--Despite calls for the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries to increase production quotas at its next meeting, the U.S. hasn't received any commitment from the group saying it would hike production again, a top U.S. energy official said Monday.
Karen Harbert, the Department of Energy's assistant secretary for policy and international affairs, told reporters she had been in constant contact with producing nations, including OPEC members.
"What we're hearing is that they are starting to become very concerned about price, (but) nobody has made any commitments to address it directly through additional supply," Harbert said when asked whether OPEC had indicated it would respond to calls to hike output.
"We hope they will take necessary action to ensure there is a much more calm and mutually beneficial market price," she told reporters at a briefing.
WSJ
susbscription may be required _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Joined: Aug 07, 2005 Posts: 302 Location: Columbia, MO
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
The US, because of it's insane oil consumption, could do more to adress issues of supply and price than any other nation on earth.
Shut down all automobile production. Liquidate these companies and use the proceeds to build rail lines. No more airlines. You need to travel, you take a train. No more sprawl, no new roads. No more clearing of land for any purpose. You need to build a building, you build it on previously built land.
Yes it would throw probably 20 million people out of work, however, oil prices would be cut by 2/3's, even if production is dropping. And these people could find other work in emerging industries, or relocalized farms.
We could actually destabilize enemy countries like Iran. Without attacking them. Ahmedinejad wouldn't be in power anymore. Chavez wouldn't be in power anymore. But Americans love the quick buck, and can't be convinced that a temporary intentional recession could be worth such benefits in the long run
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2640 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
dooberheim wrote:
Yes it would throw probably 20 million people out of work
More like create 20 million jobs.
Someones gotta build all the trains, railroads, district heating systems, nuclear reactors, windmills and so on. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: Apr 05, 2005 Posts: 2342 Location: South of Atlanta
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
dooberheim, starvid,
Oh we are going to go there. The problem is its going to take a long time and it wont be voluntary nor pretty.
We cannot conserve our way out of this mess. We cannot build our way to energy independence either. We have waited far too long to mobilize. Batten down the hatches and use these last few years to take care of yourself. The economic and political PTB have screwed the pooch and our path is pretty much sealed at this point barring some miraculous thing happening.
Joined: Apr 05, 2005 Posts: 1599 Location: Springsteen Country (NJ)
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
Starvid wrote:
Someones gotta build all the trains, railroads, district heating systems, nuclear reactors, windmills and so on.
That would be the Chinese, Indians, Filipinos, Mexicans, etc. etc.
Surely you don't expect Americans to do that kind of work any more, do you? _________________ Joe P. United Political Debate
"Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money." - Cree Indian Proverb
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5348 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
I hope this is the final nail in the coffin of the story that OPEC will raise production this week.
Ali Naimi went on to blame speculators for high prices (not in excerpt below):
Quote:
Saudi oil minister rejects Opec raise
By Roula Khalaf and Javier Blas in Riyadh
Published: November 12 2007 22:00 | Last updated: November 12 2007 22:00
Saudi Arabia on Monday made clear Opec would not announce a production increase at this weekend’s Riyadh summit.
In an interview with the Financial Times, Ali Naimi, the Saudi oil minister, said “there will be absolutely no discussion” by heads of states or their oil ministers on short-term supply and demand at the organisation’s summit, which will concentrate on with longer-term strategies of producers.
But with prices close to $100 a barrel, Mr Naimi left the door open to action when the oil cartel meets in Abu Dhabi next month, signalling the group was “watching” the market very carefully and Saudi Arabia would “look at all the information available”.
Nonetheless, he said a decision on a rise at the Abu Dhabi meeting was still “premature”.
Repeating Saudi Arabia’s argument that Opec had “nothing to do with where the price is today”, Mr Naimi said oil inventory levels were still comfortable.
Financial Times _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
dooberheim wrote:
The US, because of it's insane oil consumption, could do more to adress issues of supply and price than any other nation on earth.
Shut down all automobile production.
Well put. At this point, if we were to shut down all car factories tomorrow, there would still be more running cars on the road than fuel to run them with for the next twenty years at least. _________________ 'If a ruler hearkens to lies, all his officials become wicked.'
Joined: Feb 02, 2006 Posts: 286 Location: Denver, USA
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
Quote:
Repeating Saudi Arabia’s argument that Opec had “nothing to do with where the price is today”, Mr Naimi said oil inventory levels were still comfortable.
I think not too long ago he claimed inventories were "high" or "well-stocked". Now "comfortable". What do you think he'll tell us when they're not going to increase production when those inventories are "low" or "empty"? _________________ "It is certain that free societies would have no easy time in a future dark age. The rapid return to universal penury will be accomplished by violence and cruelties of a kind now forgotten." - Roberto Vacca, The Coming Dark Age
Joined: Dec 07, 2005 Posts: 1646 Location: Australia
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: Re: OPEC will not discuss production increase Nov 17-18
Quote:
Shut down all automobile production. Liquidate these companies and use the proceeds to build rail lines.
OK, that will pay for a couple of miles of tracks and maybe a station or two (at the most).
How you gonna fund the rest?? More money printing? Raising taxes? _________________ Lets take a ride, and run with the dogs tonight
In suburbia
You cant hide, run with the dogs tonight
In suburbia
- Pet Shop Boys
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