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funzone36
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 04, 2005
Posts: 179
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
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| Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
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Judgie
Heavy Crude
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Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 434
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| funzone36 wrote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
How large do you want it to be? how durable do you want it and how high an output do you want?
For anything larger than a small home-made rig, you'll be compromising big-time on one or more of those.
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heroineworshipper
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 556
Location: Calif*
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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Now that was an unfair question.
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People first, then things, then dollars.
There will be enslavement & cannibalism. |
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BastardSquad
Heavy Crude
Joined: Oct 24, 2004
Posts: 306
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| funzone36 wrote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels?
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Judgie
Heavy Crude
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Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 434
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| BastardSquad wrote: | | funzone36 wrote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels? |
How many moving parts do the pyramids have? did they have to withstand the forces produced at 500+ rpm, did they have to be lightweight and assembled in a matter of days with a whole lot of them taking only a few months to complete?, were they able to be produced with a minimum of labour cost and a high profit? I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. Yes you can build a windmill for grinding grain or turning a pump but these are low-tech low speed applications we're talking. I think he (funzone) means the equivalent of a full-blown high-rpm composite wind generator in plain wood and sheet metal?
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"That the cream cannot help but always rise up to the top, well I say, <censored by peakoil.com> floats"
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mos6507
Fusion
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
Posts: 3140
Location: Boston Suburbs
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| BastardSquad wrote: |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels?
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We're talking about making electric motors and metal parts, not stone pyramids.
I did some quick research and apparently it's possible to smelt metal ores by electric power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace
It takes a lot of electricity, but it is already being done today. So it seems that windmills would have enough positive EROEI to feed back into the maintenance and creation of more windmills. |
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Tyler_JC
Moderator
Joined: Sep 25, 2004
Posts: 4422
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:24 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| mos6507 wrote: | | BastardSquad wrote: |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels?
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We're talking about making electric motors and metal parts, not stone pyramids.
I did some quick research and apparently it's possible to smelt metal ores by electric power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace
It takes a lot of electricity, but it is already being done today. So it seems that windmills would have enough positive EROEI to feed back into the maintenance and creation of more windmills. |
This is news to my ears! My doomer score just fell about 10%.
We can make steel without burning coal? Sweet!
My future scenarios often involved the mass burning/replanting of forests in order to create charcoal to melt steel to build energy infrastructure (whatever form it would take)
Cut out the horrific forest monocrop/charcoal stage and the system is far more sustainable.
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The_Toecutter
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Posts: 1731
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| Quote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
Yes. What do you want to know?
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The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson |
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EnergyUnlimited
Fission
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| mos6507 wrote: | | BastardSquad wrote: |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels?
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We're talking about making electric motors and metal parts, not stone pyramids.
I did some quick research and apparently it's possible to smelt metal ores by electric power:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace
It takes a lot of electricity, but it is already being done today. So it seems that windmills would have enough positive EROEI to feed back into the maintenance and creation of more windmills. |
That is crap.
Carbon is required to reduce iron oxides (iron ores) to metallic iron.
Hydrogen could also be used but electricity alone will not do unless you would use hopelessly expensive process of electrolysis of water soluble iron salts - extensive chemical processing required.
With hydrogen it would be also hopelessly expensive process.
Electric Arc Furnaces can be used to melt existing steel, for example for the purpose of altering of its chemical composition but nevertheless they are useless for reduction of ores to the metal. |
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EnergyUnlimited
Fission
Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| The_Toecutter wrote: | | Quote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
Yes. What do you want to know? |
As long as you don't use steel for construction.
You could connect Dutch-type XVII-th century windmill design with electricity generator.
Some copper needed for generator you could smelt with renewable charcoal.
However if you want to run modern cities with that design - forget it. |
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Concerned
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 1501
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| BastardSquad wrote: | | funzone36 wrote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels? |
Was it possible to tie your shoelaces without fossil fuels.
Well it looks like we are all saved then don't it you moron.
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pup55
Expert
Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 3596
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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rijksmuseum
No problem. |
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Starvid
Fission
Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 2679
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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Now that was a stupid question.
Why in the world would anyone want to build a wind turbine without using fossil fuels?
It would be far more expensive.
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Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis. |
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jato
Moderator
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| Quote: | Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels?
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The Egyptian Pyramids were a massive energy sink. EROEI = 0.
I think Africans should be building many wind turbines without fossil fuels right now! Get busy!
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"Peak oil isn't more than an interesting industry factoid and doesn't have anything to do with the hysterics speculated on ad nauseum around here!" ReserveGrowthRulz |
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TheDude
Expert
Joined: Apr 06, 2006
Posts: 2959
Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fu |
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| BastardSquad wrote: | | funzone36 wrote: | | Is it possible to build a wind turbine without fossil fuels? |
Was it possible to build the pyramids in Egypt without fossil fuels? |
Not according to Erich von Daniken.
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Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I'm just gonna find a cash machine. |
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