I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: Does humanity serve any purpose after peak oil
Having mulled over this idea myself, I thought I'd share it.
If Peak Oil will leave such a drastic mark on society and humanity at large that what we have now, in terms of technological and social progress, represents the peak of our species what is the point in continuing to exist.
Is there any point in self-perpetuation when every generation will degenerate further and futher from our ideals.
Thus, knowing this, would you rather see the world fight it out once an d for all and be completely consumed with an all out resource war (nuclear preferably) or would you rather witness humanity degenerate endlessly?
I really hate the idea that the best we will ever accomplish has already been done, that now we are spent.
Last edited by ucosty on Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5650 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Not all of us see the technological and social changes we've wrought in the past few thousand (and especially the past 100-200) years as "progress." _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Perhaps badly worded, but in terms of capability for accomplishment, is it worth perpetuating downwards and backwards? What if society stagnates and breaks down without moving forwards? What if our future is nothing more than a mirror image of our past, where people begin to disassemble the world, followed by two world wars and a descent through the tech tree until we aren't even human any more? What is the point if we are destined to become slightly intelligent monkey-like creatures living sparesly on a planet we will know nothing about. What happens when we loose our knowledge and our ability to regain it?
I'm not suggesting that all our progress and technology and archievements have been enjoyed by everyone. I also know that many on this forum harbour a longing for a kind of primal freedom that can only be had in their minds.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6942 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
"What if" comprises a fairly large range of possibilities.
Perhaps it might be worth a laugh trying to instigate an outcome completely opposite those you are proposing.
Just a thought…
Quit if you like, but I would suggest consulting a professional before you decide to end it all on a personal level - a message board is not the place to decide where your family tree should end.
BTW, the "Point" is to see your children grow - try it; it's pretty cool. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Quote:
Quit if you like, but I would suggest consulting a professional before you decide to end it all on a personal level - a message board is not the place to decide where your family tree should end.
...?
What kind of professional do you mean anyway, pops? I assure you that I am not a depressed person.
In any case I have no intention on having children. There are already too many people in this world. This is something I have always held true.
My original question was purely hypothetical. I shouldn't need to repeat it.
Anyway I am thinking this was probably the wrong forum to post in. Maybe general discussion or the off-topic forum is more suitable. I'm getting the feeling that people are more readily dissecting me than my hypothetical question.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5650 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
I think the subject of the thread "Would you end it all?" is easily misinterpreted as a reference to personal suicide, which is probably not what you intended. You meant civilization and the human species, no?
Again, I think you and I have very different ideals and ideas of what constitutes accomplishment. I was really enamored of technology and worked with it for a living, both as a programmer and a weather radar (and other remote sensing stuff) researcher. I wanted the Star Trek future. After I learned about peak oil I started reading and researching other things, and I realized that in fact we have become less human, not more, because of our recent history. I'm horribly grief stricken with that realization. What we've lost is almost unimaginable. I'm probably not wording all this very well, and I definitely don't intend to be condescending or to dissect you. If you want a better idea of where I'm coming from, the book Ishmael is a good place to start.
What I'm hoping is that we leave the world with enough scraps of life that it can regenerate, and that we leave enough human descendents that some generations from now we find our way back to humanity. I certainly don't expect to see that in my lifetime, but I'll do what I can to make it happen. I think true humanity is almost unbearably beautiful. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
SO you’re not thinking of ending it ucosty. That’s good. You’ve got to fight the fight.
For anyone reading this that is thinking of ending it all, please think of visiting a family of someone who has commited suicide, especially if it was a young person. I have experience of this first hand. It destroys many people left behind. Never to recover emotionally. For those people it is worse than death.
It is IMO, a truly hateful thing to do. This guy was my friend, and it feels strange to speak ill of him. It affected everybody who knew him. His father is a broken man. Still to this day. It happened about 14 years ago.
Edit: Oh I see I missed the point. Man I'm trigger happy.
Last edited by Grifter on Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 39 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Grifter wrote:
SO you’re not thinking of ending it ucosty. That’s good. You’ve got to fight the fight.
For anyone reading this that is thinking of ending it all, please think of visiting a family of someone who has commited suicide, especially if it was a young person. I have experience of this first hand. It destroys many people left behind. Never to recover emotionally. For those people it is worse than death.
It is IMO, a truly hateful thing to do. This guy was my friend, and it feels strange to speak ill of him. It affected everybody who knew him. His father is a broken man. Still to this day. It happened about 14 years ago.
I've taken a hint and renamed the thread. In fairness it was 4am when I created this thread.
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Grifter wrote:
SO you’re not thinking of ending it ucosty. That’s good. You’ve got to fight the fight.
For anyone reading this that is thinking of ending it all, please think of visiting a family of someone who has commited suicide, especially if it was a young person. I have experience of this first hand. It destroys many people left behind. Never to recover emotionally. For those people it is worse than death.
It is IMO, a truly hateful thing to do. This guy was my friend, and it feels strange to speak ill of him. It affected everybody who knew him. His father is a broken man. Still to this day. It happened about 14 years ago.
Edit: Oh I see I missed the point. Man I'm trigger happy.
Not to be disrespectful or to downplay the pain caused by such an event in any way but what kind of state of mind do you think someone who takes such a step is in? Maybe they are in such turmoil and pain themselves that they can't even think of others? Also if such an event was truly 'worse than death' for everyone left behind how is it that they haven't followed suit?
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Ayame wrote:
Not to be disrespectful or to downplay the pain caused by such an event in any way but what kind of state of mind do you think someone who takes such a step is in? Maybe they are in such turmoil and pain themselves that they can't even think of others? Also if such an event was truly 'worse than death' for everyone left behind how is it that they haven't followed suit?
No, no
Just for some people it is worse than death, not everyone.
I do supposedly suffer from depression too, I can understand a little of that state of mind.
It is not something that most people would ever consider doing except in the most dire of circumstances. This was in a world of abundance. Considering doind the deed is one thing. Thinking solely of your own internal world, disregarding the world of others is the epitome of western civilizations failings. He and a few other of my friends were, and are, free thinkers. All avenues should have been considered. All subjects could have been discussed.
I like the quote
Quote:
the foundation of all mental illness is the absence of legitimate suffering.
Sorry to continue the off topicness. To offer something to the threads new meaning, the purpose is enlightenment. Achieving time for contemplative moments, meaningful interaction with others. As long as we have full bellies that is
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1258 Location: Off with the Fey Folk
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Does humanity serve any purpose after peak oil
ucosty wrote:
Is there any point in self-perpetuation when every generation will degenerate further and futher from our ideals.
Thus, knowing this, would you rather see the world fight it out once an d for all and be completely consumed with an all out resource war (nuclear preferably) or would you rather witness humanity degenerate endlessly?
I really hate the idea that the best we will ever accomplish has already been done, that now we are spent.
Good grief man, we built Rome, Sparta, Athens and Alexandria without Oil.
If you think that 'the best we will ever accomplish' is all about little machines that jump up and down a bit, and in the end do diddley-squat, then you have a very narrow perspective of that which what our great project of 'Civilisation' is all-about.
JPL _________________ I see a dark sail on the horizon
set under a black cloud that hides the sun.
Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding.
Bring me my cross of gold as a talisman.
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1258 Location: Off with the Fey Folk
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Does humanity serve any purpose after peak oil
UncoveringTruths wrote:
Was humanity serving any purpose before extracting oil?
Errr, well, here we go I guess (in particular order):
Plato.
Aristotle.
Julius Ceaser.
Beethoven.
Karl Marx.
Einstein.
Mozart.
Tolkein (just a personal favourite, you understand).
Newton.
Dickens.
Shakespere.
Alexander (the Great).
Churchill.
Bach.
Just a quick list of my personal heroes- I'm sure others can add to it if they wish to...
JPL _________________ I see a dark sail on the horizon
set under a black cloud that hides the sun.
Bring me my broadsword and clear understanding.
Bring me my cross of gold as a talisman.
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Would you end it all?
Grifter wrote:
Sorry to continue the off topicness. To offer something to the threads new meaning, the purpose is enlightenment.
You might be not all that far off with that assessment. I like the following in regards to 2012 especially the last point:
Terence McKenna's mathematical novelty theory suggests a point of singularity in which a great number of things could happen, including "hyperspatial breakthrough", planetesimal impact, alien contact, historical metamorphosis, metamorphosis of natural law, solar explosion, quasar ignition at the galactic core, or nothing.
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