I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
Enerize Corporationof Florida Invents a Major Breakthrough in Improving Performance of Photovoltaic Module with Transparent Polymers to Replace Glass.
What do you guys think, won't this polymers yellow after a while shorting the life the of PV ?
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
While the front page of their website seems to be a PR rant, the technology sounds like a practical product. The page claims:
Quote:
The proprietary polymer material from Enerize is highly transparent, and stable under UV and ionizing radiation exposure.
If so, it would hold up. Their testing was done on 72 sqcm panels. Not particularly large, but big enough to gather data. I would be interested in keeping track of this company and its product. If its claims of increasing efficiency in solar panels is correct, it would indeed be a significant contribution to the solar PV industry. _________________ If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984
Joined: Aug 07, 2005 Posts: 302 Location: Columbia, MO
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
I'd be really skeptical of an organic polymer retaining its transmissivity as long as glass does. But since there is the tradeoff of increased efficiency, perhaps it would be worthwhile.
The polymer comes from oil, I would imagine.
It could be useful in areas that have high probabilities of large hail, if it is tougher than glass.
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
Quote:
This technology is now at the active product development stage
So is my warp drive system.
1. They claim a "proprietary" polymer. I say BullShit. New polymers are few and far between nowadays. Your basic transparent thermoplastics and thermosets have been around a long time, and are well understood. Polyethylene, polyurethane, polyethylene glycol, polyacrylates, polyimides, polyvinyls . . .
Nowadays all anybody really does is tweak one or more characteristics, throw in some chemical goodies, and there you have it.
I sincerely doubt that they have formulated a new polymer.
2. Glass naturally blocks UV light. Most polymers do not, and most polymers are rapidly degraded by UV light (think old dashboards). They claim to utilize UV light in the PV cell, but if the polymer is not protected from UV light, I'd really question how long it would take for the polymer to break down and lose transparency.
3. Most of the polymers that I mentioned above have a very high transparency in the visible spectrum if they have no additives in them. Putting in additives typically lowers transmission. I seriously doubt that there are substantial efficiency gains to be had from a polymer that is "clearer".
4. Most polymers use natural gas as a feed stock.
CH4-CH4 (ethane or ethylene from natural gas) polymerize to C-C-C-C-C-C------for hundreds to thousands of Cs, and you have polyethylene.h
Hype is all. Show me the PV cell, then I'll be interested. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
Cashmere wrote:
CH4-CH4
No such a thing...
Quote:
(ethane or ethylene from natural gas) polymerize...
1. Ethane is not ethylene.
2. Ethylene (CH2=CH2) is also known as ethene.
3. Ethane (CH3-CH3) does not polymerize.
4. Ethylene does.
Above remarks are presented to make chemistry straight.
In overall I agree with your other concerns about transparency loss of most of polymers etc due to UV albeit few fluorocarbon polymers, Teflon alike, would resist that fate.
The snag is that fluorocarbon polymers don't tend to be transparent in the first place.
Any breakthrough here would be welcomed.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:53 am Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
My chemistry was never great, so be gentle if I'm saying something totally stupid here: Could they be talking about a non-carbon polymer? Are such things possible? Couldn't polymers be made, theoretically, based on silicon? Are any such in existence?
It still seems unlikely to me that any kind of polymer would have the qualities they ascribe to it, for the reasons stated. Probably just hype.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
dohboi wrote:
My chemistry was never great, so be gentle if I'm saying something totally stupid here: Could they be talking about a non-carbon polymer? Are such things possible? Couldn't polymers be made, theoretically, based on silicon? Are any such in existence?
1. Yes, they could talk about non-carbon polymer, albeit it would rather be a polycondensate, not polymer.
2. Yes, they are.
Examples are certain polysiloxanes or phosphazene polycondensates. They usually contain some carbon, but it is not essential.
On the other hand some carbon containing functional groups are usually introduced to increase stability and chemical resistance of these materials.
Excluding of these carbon functionalities would usually result in decreased performance of such materials, albeit it is theoretically possible that some more exotic varieties free of carbon and of grater UV resistance than usual polymers could be made.
3. You could play with few other elements to make novel polycondensates or polymers.
Most promising are:
- silikones (with -Si-O-Si- backbone),
- phosphazenes (with -P(=O)=N- backbone),
- various boron based materials, either with B-O or B-N bonds, some of them very stable.
Cubic boron nitride known as borazon could be formally considered to be a polymer of monomeric BN molecule.
Large crystals would be transparent, stable for millions of years to anything what reasonably could be encountered in natural environment and almost as hard as diamond.
The snag is that it is very expensive to make - about as hard to synthetise as artificial diamond is.
However crystals of this material doped with traces of other elements could be made to work as a very robust semiconductor transparent to light.
Quote:
It still seems unlikely to me that any kind of polymer would have the qualities they ascribe to it, for the reasons stated. Probably just hype.
I also think so albeit, as you have pointed out, they could bump on some exotic (and in all probabilities very expensive to make) inorganic material.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
Thanks, EU, that was awesome.
I bet you're right about the expense. Scalability is pretty much the whole issue for any substance that is supposed to help significantly in world energy production.
But that cubic boron nitride does sound like fun stuff.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Major Breakthrough in Photovoltaic Module !!!
Quote:
1. Ethane is not ethylene.
2. Ethylene (CH2=CH2) is also known as ethene.
3. Ethane (CH3-CH3) does not polymerize.
4. Ethylene does.
Above remarks are presented to make chemistry straight.
Of course all correct.
I gave it the 5 minute "chemistry for dummies" with the thought that nobody who didn't know already would benefit from the difference. I actually noticed the extra hydrogens after I posted - I had originally intended to use methane, but then went to ethane, which is the actual starting material for most plastics.
So I tried to avoid the details, but I didn't mean to be incorrect.
Sure sure ethane is not ethylene, but this isn't the 2nd week of O-chem.
What people need to understand is the following . . .
Natural gas is 1 or 2 or 3 carbons in a row.
Gasoline is about 8 carbons in a row.
Make the chain a little longer, you have diesel.
Longer yet, you have motor oil.
Make it super long, and you have plastic.
Put a bunch of carbons into an interconnected web, and not a linear chain like the above, and you have coal.
In theory, you could start with pure methane, with 1 carbon, and from it make propane for your grill, gasoline for your tank, diesel for your tractor, and coal for you furnace.
Any of the above can be converted into any of the others.
This is why coal can be made into gasoline.
That's the simple version. If you want the complex version, where you learn why 2 methanes (CH4) combine to form an ethane (C2H6) with the removal of two hydrogens, why ethene is not called ethene, how to compute R value based on octane chain isomer content, then take O chem. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
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