Minimal Electric Use Plan (Personal)?

Narz

Hi. Just wondering if anyone here counts their kilowatts like some folks count their calories? I've always thought it would be sweet to be able to cut out the electric companies & live solely off of a single 70 watt solar panel (for instance) or a backup battery system that they charge at work (or perhaps Starbucks Surprised

). Anyone actually do this?

Next place I get, I don't think I'd like to pay for electricity. You think the whole running your home off a battery idea is feasible?

Hey mods, I though this thread was most appropriate but if it gets no action here will you move to "Planning for the Future" (and if that doesn't work try Open Discussion Very Happy

). Thanks!

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Cashmere · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Posts: 1971

I'm considering a whole-house battery backup - makes so much more sense than a generator.

Don't waste money on the one you linked or something like it.

You're much better off buying several deep cycle marine batteries and an inverter yourself. Those off the shelf battery backups tend to hold very few watt hours.
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Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.

Narz · Last edited by Narz on Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

SolarDave · Heavy Crude Joined: May 19, 2005 Posts: 382

dbuckley

some_math_guy · Tar Sands Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 56

Yes, you sure can live with one 70W panel...if you are happy running only a single 13W fluorescent lightbulb for about a day, which is all the power this system will generate. Assuming you buy components off-the-shelf, this small system will also cost you about $1500-2000. Feeling better about your local power company now???

Yes, you sure can run your house off of solar panels - the average house uses about 40Kwh of electricity per day, so if you get 6 hours of good sun on average per day (which is very optimistic), you need about 6,600W of solar panels. The lowest price for new solar panels right now is about 5$ per Watt, so that's about $33,000 just for your solar panels. Then you will also need another $10,000 or so for wiring, mounting brackets, breakers, and other parts as well as installation costs.

Then, to actually use the power, you have 2 options: if you want to hook the system into the grid (no batteries or backup ability) it will be at least another $5,000 or so for the inverter, installation, and permits. If you want to be totally independent on the other hand, expect to pay about $20,000 for enough deep-cycle batteries and a quality inverter to store the energy and output 120V AC. Btw, all of these batteries will have to be replaced about every 10 years.

Starting to get the picture why nobody has solar panels generating electricity on their houses? The price of electricity would have to increase by 5 or 10 times for PV solar panels to make any kind of economic sense. The only people who use them are people who live miles from the grid, or feel-good environmental types. Not to discount these folks (I have solar panels myself), but you have to be realistic about what solar panels can do for you.

Fossil fuels are still unbelievably cheap. It has been estimated that the replacement cost of a barrel of oil using renewable energy sources is between 400-800$/bb. And people complain about 150$/bb oil!!!! Oil has a LONG LONG way to go up before switching to renewables will make any kind of economic sense, which is going to have a massive impact on the way society functions long before we start to make the transition.

>>>Hi. Just wondering if anyone here counts their kilowatts like some folks count their calories? I've always thought it would be sweet to be able to cut out the electric companies & live solely off of a single 70 watt solar panel (for instance) or a backup battery system that they charge at work (or perhaps Starbucks Surprised ). Anyone actually do this?

Next place I get, I don't think I'd like to pay for electricity. You think the whole running your home off a battery idea is feasible?

Hey mods, I though this thread was most appropriate but if it gets no action here will you move to "Planning for the Future" (and if that doesn't work try Open Discussion Very Happy). Thanks!

Narz

Meh, Fark it, I figure I'll probably try to go cold turkey. Get one of those "stay frozen for three days" coolers at Costco (fridge/freezer is the main energy cost) and a bunch of battery powered LED's for every room (probably four - living, bed, bath & kitchen).

Only thing besides lighting I use much at home is laptop but I can live without that for a few hours each night (and ride 1 mile to the closest hotspot if I MUST go online).

math_guy, you seem to be assuming I'm your average "Joe-six-pack" with an espresso machine, a 1500 sq foot home & a large screen TV. Like I said, all I use at home (electricitywise) are lights & a laptop. That and computer speakers but I've got that covered with an MP3-player that gets 70-80 hours on a Double-A & weak but usable speakers that are powered off that device (well, I'm about to pick those up for $13, will let you know how they are).
_________________
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“Seek simplicity but distrust it”

Cashmere · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Posts: 1971

I don't know.

I don't agree for a second that you should base any PV decisions on "your average American."

If you scale down your life completely, you can get by on a 1/4 of the Average American usage.

In a permanant emergency, having SOME power is better than having none.

I also don't agree that the better lead-acid batteries only last 10 years. My car's battery, which costs 50 bucks, lasted longer than 10 years IN THE CAR.

If you get top quality batteries, my understanding is that you'll get closer to 20 years.

So invest in a few LED bulbs, can and bag/bucket don't freeze, sell the 4000 watt HD TV, get a cheap laptop rather than a watt-hog desktop, and so on, and you'll find that you can have a nice back-up system that can get you through those long brown outs/black outs that will be coming.

I think you have time to do this.

Unless we have complete collapse, they'll keep the lights on for a few more years to keep the sheep calm.
_________________
Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.

RedStateGreen

There's this Yahoo group called Riot for Austerity that counts their kilowatts. I was part of it for a while. It's also called 90 percent reduction.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/90PercentReduction/
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Conservation is conservative

It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin

Narz

kpeavey · Expert Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 1312

It was a long hard day, as many of them are. I have a belly full of chinese food, I'm tired, and I have to be out the door in 6 hours. However, this thread needs my 2 cents.

First, the background...
July 30, 2006
A small but strong thunderstorm rips through town. About the only damage was a few tree limbs down, some fences blown over and a whole bunch of wet dogs. The storm only lasted for 15 minutes, but when it was over, half the town had no electricity. I found this out when I got home, looked at the fan in the window and saw it was not running. Flip a switch, no lights, I have no power. I look back at the fan in the window and think to myself "hmmm...That's funny." It was not the fan that was out of place, but the 50 foot yellow poplar tree visible in the window now had a slope of 45 degrees.

I went outside to discover the tree had been blown over. Going around the corner I further discovered a bunch of electric company trucks has shown up to remove the wires from the tree. When I made it to the back of the house I found the full extent of the situation. The tree had fallen with the limbs tearing the power off my house-snapping the weatherhead in half, torn down a utility pole, split the next one in half, tore the wires from my neighbors house, crushed 30 feet of stockade fence, ripped the greenhouse up, and was resting on the northwest corner of my roof, with parts of my house scattered in, amongst, around and under the tree.

At this point the insurance claim has entered arbitration, with a secondary suit filed for bad faith. Depositions begin in the next couple of months. Blah, atty, blah, blah, lets do lunch, blah, atty, blah. I'm sick of it.

In the meantime, life goes on.

In order to get electricity restored to this old house (built 1929), the entire house grid must be brought up to current code, since the weatherhead was sheared. This will cost a couple grand. The rest of the house is more crooked than a politician, so repairs are pointless as the structural integrity has been compromised. I got no electricity, aint gonna get no electricity, been like this for 2 years now, and all I want to do is put beer in the fridge, take a hot bath and cook some bacon. City gas service is also shut off due to structural damage where the gas main connects to the house.

I ran a generator for a night, but with the busted ass fence, the generator now belongs to someone else. On to plan B.

I have the best neighbor in the world. When I move, I must take her with me. She has a back porch with electricity for her washing machine. 150 feet of extension cords later, I could plug in a light. Add a 6 plug power strip, I can power a few things. By now the one cord serves the greenhouse, camper and the house. I must have 1000 feet of extension cords. Finally added a light to the bathroom last month.

The key to the whole operation is GFI. Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt. Since I have to connect 2 cords in the middle of the yard, and again in the greenhouse, if it rains or water gets in there, the thigs will short circuit, melt, screw up a whole lot of stuff. This has happened twice, and the cost of replacing 100' of 10 guage outdoor extension cords is outrageous. I've taken other measures, but the GFI is the siht. The drawback is that I am limited to 14.5 amps of 110v service. I can squeeze about 18 amps out of the rig if I take out the GFI and my neighbor is not doing laundry.

With a limit on amperage, I have no choice but to monitor my electrical use in great detail.

How much power does my stuff use, what can I use simultaneously, what is the test to determine if I am drawing too much? The test turns out to be either A-no electricity or B-smoke in the greenhouse. I strive to pass the test at all times.

Time for priorities.
Alarm clock, gotta get to work to fund my continued misery.
Lighting
Coffee maker
Phone charger
Cold food storage
Cooking ability
Laundry
Heat and fan

15 amps is enough to operate the clock, a fluorescent light bulb, phone, 1.6 amp fridge, and 1 major device at a time, be it the coffee machine, or a washer, or an electric cook top, or a microwave, or a toaster oven, or a blender, or small space heater, or a skill saw, or a-you get the idea. If I'm getting close, the lights start to pulsate. I have to turn something off, the first to go is whatever the big thing was that I just turned on. Leave the coffee maker on, I find out fast about the error in my ways.

Adjusting lifestyle is mandated. Make the coffee, turn off the machine, pour it into a thermos. Do laundry when I'm not cooking or when I leave for work. Turn off the heat when I make supper. Plastic up the windows in the winter, have plenty of blankets around, sweat like a pig, a big fat sweaty pig, in the summer. Buy milk by the half gallon so it fits in the fridge, get the smaller dish of margarine, can the meat when it gets home. It turns out that ice is not that important after all. Until I get another power strip, extension cord and lamp, carry the lamp into the next room when moving around the house, and stock extra light bulbs to counter a complete lack of dexterity/lamp handling skills. Don't just turn off the TV/DVD, unplug them. I need the 10 milliamps. Charge the phone in the truck whenever possible. Get the 18 watt fluorescent tube, not the 26. Give up the Norelco, listen to McEnrow. Youtube uses less power than the DVD player.

Here are the Rules:
1 word: SolarLinerClothesDryer.
2 Words: Long Johns.
3 Words: Make Do Without.
4 Words: Get More Backup Systems.
5 Words: Sh Sh Sh Sh S-hi-v-v-v-e-e-e-r-rr-r

What they mean:
1 Find ways to do things without using electricity. The sun is a beautiful thing. Do you really need to run a fingernail polish drying machine? For that matter, do you really need fingernail polish?

2 Find ways of getting by without electricity. I heat hot water with 500 feet of tubing in the driveway.

3 Give up things and ways which require electricity. My outside night time lighting is the Moon. It works half the time.

4 Develop other energy systems to replace electricity. I bought a woodstove a couple weeks ago.

5 Suffer when all else fails. There will be things you will lose completely when the power goes out. The hardest one for me is when it gets cold. There is no heat in the house. I can afford the bill. I can keep my blue haired mother toasty warm all winter in Maine in a trailer with oil heat, but I freeze my nuts off. go figure.

---
I've done the math, figured out what I can leave on, what has to be turned off. You can go ahead and count your kilowatts all you want, come up with MOL for your electricity use, by all means, if it pleases you, get right to it. But be sure to put things into perspective. There are plenty of things which will run on just a little bit of power-cell phones, laptop computers, alarm clocks, for example. Their use and function is well defined but has practical limits. 5 amps for 24 hours, You'll be able to operate most of your tiny things and have a light to use it by.

Let's take a look at history. When electricity first started making its way from town to town, and houses were wired by those first electricians, the old places were set up to handle the electrical demand of the day: A couple of light bulbs, a radio in the sitting room, maybe one of those brand new clothes washing machines- deluxe style with a wringer. All that was needed was a couple of 10 amp fuses, maybe a 20 amp fuse and the entire house was electrified. Appliances and tools were designed with these common limits in mind. Things like toasters, toaster ovens, coffee percolators, power tools, all stayed under a 15 amp limit in order that they can be used by just about anyone. To this day, most household circuit breakers are in the 20 amp range. With the exception of a stove, dryer, water heater, central heat and air, just about everything else can be plugged in anywhere and operate smoothly.

If you have 15 amps of 110 volts, you can run pretty much anything you like. You might not be able to run much else at the same time, but you can run something. You can cut a board. mow the yard, cook dinner, heat a small space, make coffee, freeze ice, store cold food, boil water. This is function, purpose, use, practicality, ability, advantage. The machines are all over the place and will be around for a considerable period. Few people will have the ability to operate them, making them worthless to them, valuable to you. Trade a dozen eggs for an electric food dehydrator, hell yeah.

A solar PV system capable of dependably delivering 15 amps will run you about $6k. You can run your entire home off a system this size, but it won't offer everything you have running right now. The biggest energy consumption devices-stove, hot water, dryer, AC, will all have to be done another way. Get yourself a woodstove and plan on sweating like a pig, a big fat sweaty pig, in the summer.
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If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--for ever."
-George Orwell, 1984

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Accept the Facts.

oxj

My favorite new device is the Genie III lamp. Lehman's has them. They cost a bit, are fragile, and use kerosene.

Two hours of operation last night maybe used a 1/4 cup or about 3¢, and it was bright enough that the wife could do cross stitching about six feet away. It provides 60W of light and 2600BTU/hr, or 760W, totalling 820W of energy. Over 2 hours this is 1640Whr, and at 10¢/kWhr this is 16¢.

It warmed the room and had no smell once it began to burn, even using kerosene and not lamp oil which is distilled kerosene. I am going to buy at least two more.

Narz

Thanks for the breakdown kpeavey. I figure I can use my cell for an alarm clock (charge @ work, library or somewhere else), lighting can be non-plug in battery powered stuff, don't drink coffee (though I like tea & will miss the boiling water @ night & in the AM), phone charging I can do away from home, cold food storage isn't too crucial as I mostly eat at work & can freeze fake-ice bricks there to put in a cooler when I get home, cooking I do at work so can bring home pre-cooked stuff, being without laundry & heat & fan will be a pain, laundermats I find rather repulsive & while no heat in South Carolina should be fine, no fan indoors in the summer will probably be difficult to unbearable & I'll probably have to take some sort of action to make one work by then.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like it probably made you stronger & helped you appreciate the small things though it sounds like it must've been a headache at the time.
_________________
My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).

“Seek simplicity but distrust it”

WisJim

We have been generating our own electricity since 1976, living off grid from 1977 to 1989, then moving the family and our wind generator and PVs to an on-grid house in 1989, which is now about 80% to 90% solar and wind powered. We have a bit over $20,000 invested in our system, and have done all the design and installation ourselves. It works reliably, it has paid for itself. BUT we don't use air conditioning, we have wood heat (but have a furnace with a fan on it), have 2 refrigerators and 2 chest freezers, heat our water with wood and LP gas, cook with wood and LP. I have over the years posted odds and ends of info about our system, and some day will have to do a complete write up. We did show it to 70+ people during the ASES National Solar Tour last Saturday, October 4th, and have done that for the last 4 years.

Loki · Expert Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1298 Location: Cascadia

Narz, first thing you should get is a Kill-A-Watt meter. It opened my eyes to just how much juice all my stuff was using. I quantified everything (except the stove, the plug of which doesn't fit in the Kill-A-Watt). Made me start turning off the power strip on my juice-hog of a desktop (the system uses ~18 watts when it's supposedly turned "off"). The electric kettle and microwave use a lot of juice (~1000 W), but they're not on for very long. The food dehydrator is also a serious hog (~1000 W), but it needs to run for 12+ hours to get the job done. Not sure it's worth it, but I don't use it enough to feel too guilty.

As for living on one solar panel, good luck with that. That's eco-saint territory.
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"A little stored food and Bob's your uncle." --TT