I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
I've noticed that this board appears to be populated by more men than women and that's a puzzle to me. I'm a smart woman who's married to a very smart man and today he told me, "I don't know why you're obsessed over this peak oil thing and recession and the real estate market. I wish you'd stop talking about all this. It just depresses me."
I've made a POINT of NOT talking about it for days at a time but sometimes, I'd like to help him understand what's on the horizon. He's a hyper-intelligent fellow but has a high stress job and he says that when he comes home, he just wants "peace and calm."
So, I've decided to make some quiet, easy-to-do preparations on my own and buy gold on my own and save some money on my own (and he's fine with all that) but it's very frustrating to be with someone who is so very smart and so very educated and so very decent, yet denies that America is (or will be) in recession.
Last night, he made a point of showing me the news report that showed growth for the first quarter of 2008, adding, "See, you were wrong about predicting a recession. The economy is doing great!"
SO I have two points/questions. One, why does it seem to be that men are more interested in this topic than women (generally), and two, what can I do with a GOOD, decent, honest, caring man who refuses to talk about this subject? He grew up in very modest means and put himself through college and post-grad school and I think he just can't bear to think/talk/ponder a contracting American economy. And I wonder if age matters? He's now almost 60 years old.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1633 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Hope_full,
There are several good threads in the psychology forum that might help you. My advice would be to let it go; let him have the peace he craves. However, continue to educate yourself and prepare as best you can. Walk the walk and he'll notice the difference and then he'll come around. Besides you don't need to convince him. If the consequences of the PO theory are correct then reality will get his attention, then you'll be there with your preps.
DA _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3855 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Hope_full, I could have written that post..oh, wait... I HAVE written that post!
He'll come around, but gosh darn it, it will be Very slow. Just keep mentioning a few low-key comments here and there. My DH is not there yet, but he is beginning to see the same horizon as I do. _________________ "RRrrruuuunnnn!!!" ~Apocalypto
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 304 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
DomusAlbion wrote:
Hope_full,
There are several good threads in the psychology forum that might help you. My advice would be to let it go; let him have the peace he craves. However, continue to educate yourself and prepare as best you can. Walk the walk and he'll notice the difference and then he'll come around. Besides you don't need to convince him. If the consequences of the PO theory are correct then reality will get his attention, then you'll be there with your preps.
DA
Hope - Yes, there are many good threads, and yes, I agree with DomusAlbion that your self-education and beginning to prepare (even if that just means starting a list of everything you need to learn, stock up on, etc -- info available on other threads here -- use the "Google po.com" link in the left column here under "NEWS" heading) are the best things you can do.
I would disagree with his categorical statement that "he'll come around." I base this on the fact that there are a number of threads here where people talk about their marriages/relationships ending over peak oil concerns, preparations, etc.
Being in a situation where one HAS to hold one's tongue entirely about ANYTHING one perceives to be a problem or real threat (as most of us here think of peak oil's impact) can be devastating to a marriage.
You will find that the cyber-acquaintances you make here on peak oil will be helpful listeners -- and suggestion providers. That may help will relieve some of the pressure and frustration you experience.
I hope for both your sakes that your husband does come around.
Good luck to you -- and we will be here with and for you.
Lumpy _________________ Jackie Joyner-Kersee: "It is better to look forward & prepare, than to look back & regret."
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Quote:
He's a hyper-intelligent fellow
Obviously not.
I suppose everyone has their own definition of intelligent.
I suppose I include as a must-have on the list of things that an intelligent person must have is the ability to see a train coming when he's laying on the tracks, eyes wide open, looking in the direction the train is coming.
I think too many people confuse the ability to memorize and spit back with the ability to reason.
It's nice that someone has a massive vocabulary.
But if they're 60 and they still think the newspaper is reporting the real news, then they're not really that smart.
I really feel bad for you.
It appears that you man has a bunch of good characteristics but is lacking the most critical one.
Fortunately, he may get it.
Most people on this board are sensitive, give-em time types.
I'm not.
Life's way too short, and it's about to get shorter.
I'd ultimatum his dumb ass.
"You're either going to get serious about this or I'm going to have to move on."
Why the ratio of men to women?
Because women are biologically less inclined to want to believe such things. Most women I know are the, "oh it'll work out" types. My wife is, but with my opinion thrown in, she's 100% on board with preps and such.
Guys are more hard wired to look for problems.
I think culturally and biologically women are more programmed to accept the status quo, fit in, find a support system and stick to it.
Men are more likely to say - f - - - it --- and move on their own.
Like I said - I feel bad for you.
Finally, I have to throw this out there, and I acknowledge it's harsh.
The guy is 60. That's old. He's got a life expectancy of 15 years.
His kids should be grown and out of the house.
In short, the man has very little left on the table to lose.
If I was 60 with no kids, I probably not even stock up on food.
What would be the point?
To squeeze an extra few years out of an already long life.
How old are you?
If the answer is 40 and you still want to have kids . . .
You're with the wrong guy. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Peak Oil IQ Test. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Planning for the "Big One" as people like Matt Savinar like to propogate is fruitless and in the end it will get a person nowhere as hoarding food as opposed to sharing with your neighbors will get you nowhere. That entire mindset is going to be our biggest hurdle to overcome - There is very little natural affection between people anymore.
Living conservatively is what we (as a collective nation), should do anyway. Yes Walmart and Macdonalds will suffer, but the only way we are going to reposition our society (If it is even possible) is to take our lumps and start investing in our future as opposed to our immediate gratifcation.
I am 40 and my wife is 30 - She fully accepts that change is coming . Maybe if you frame the discussion around making conserative changes as opposed to "peak oil" and economic collapse it will be better recieved.
I don't even talk about PO anymore - It sounds to culty and besides rising prices speak for themselves.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Cashmere wrote:
Because women are biologically less inclined to want to believe such things. Most women I know are the, "oh it'll work out" types. My wife is, but with my opinion thrown in, she's 100% on board with preps and such. ...
You're with the wrong guy.
So much for armchair relationship counseling. Sheesh.
Dude, do you do stand up comedy? "Women be like wa wa wa wa... Men be like duh duh duh duh duh... Am i right? Am i right?"
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
aflurry wrote:
Cashmere wrote:
Because women are biologically less inclined to want to believe such things. Most women I know are the, "oh it'll work out" types. My wife is, but with my opinion thrown in, she's 100% on board with preps and such. ...
You're with the wrong guy.
So much for armchair relationship counseling. Sheesh.
Dude, do you do stand up comedy? "Women be like wa wa wa wa... Men be like duh duh duh duh duh... Am i right? Am i right?"
Did you notice the sentence structure and writing style? Short clipped emotional statements with very little factual content. Probably not a person to be taken seriously in a matter such as this.
Joined: Jun 30, 2005 Posts: 743 Location: northern California
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
Living conservatively is what we (as a collective nation), should do anyway. Yes Walmart and Macdonalds will suffer, but the only way we are going to reposition our society (If it is even possible) is to take our lumps and start investing in our future as opposed to our immediate gratification.
Would you please expand upon this paragraph? Thanks _________________ "When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon."
Thomas Paine
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
Huh?
Armchair what?
That's my take on it.
What's your take? Hmm? Why is the male/female ratio at PO.com about 3 or more to 1.
But also, answer this . . .
Are women, on average, more emotional than men, on average?
Because if you don't get that, then the only difference in your mind between men and women is what exactly? *** and balls? _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
dunewalker wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
Living conservatively is what we (as a collective nation), should do anyway. Yes Walmart and Macdonalds will suffer, but the only way we are going to reposition our society (If it is even possible) is to take our lumps and start investing in our future as opposed to our immediate gratification.
Would you please expand upon this paragraph? Thanks
Our society is consumed with consumerism. If we were to begin to invest in locally based economies in which at least some of our basic necessities of life are provided by local people we would be a lot better off in the long run. I live in a place surrounded by farmland in a city of 300k. Most of that farmland is being used to grow and export grass seed. If some of that land were dedicated to growing food it would create jobs locally keep some of the commerce in our local region, as opposed to sending it to ADM or some other fortune 25 comglomerate.
We could also promote local mass transit, in car pools, bike pools etc. There are many things we can do that would involve a difficult transitionary period, but would help. Our community is beggining to explore smaller Power Generation grids as well that burn biofuels.
These are all things that would take money away from our retail based economy, but would benefit us in the long run.
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
hope_full wrote:
I've noticed that this board appears to be populated by more men than women and that's a puzzle to me. I'm a smart woman who's married to a very smart man and today he told me, "I don't know why you're obsessed over this peak oil thing and recession and the real estate market. I wish you'd stop talking about all this. It just depresses me."
HF
I'm a female in my late twenties. My husband is in his mid-thirties.
I have to say, my husband says the EXACT same thing. He thinks I'm obsessed. He doesn't really want to talk about it. He finds the subject depressing.
As an added frustration factor, we have three kids. We love them to pieces, but they're young enough that economically it makes sense to stay home with them. (In other words: if I went to work, most of my "extra income" or 3/4 of it would go to childcare related costs--no gain and we all know what childcare is like in America )
So, we're scraping along on one income. I've exhausted my savings. Thanks to unexpected healthcare costs and layoffs here-and-there over the last two years.
We are, essentially, sitting ducks. The economy tanks and we're history. We're both only children of really obnoxious baby-boomer generation parents who haven't learned to think beyond the ends of their noses. Odds are, they'll come tracking us down to save them when we can't even save ourselves.
So, you'd think TALKING about this stuff would be a good idea and PRONTO...wouldn't you? To make whatever band-aid plans we can?
Nope. It's depressing, probably not even a real threat, not worth talking about.
I don't think this is a male or female problem. I think this is a denial of current events problem. Although, I will say, my gender and child-rearing status ain't a bonus at the moment.
Joined: Sep 04, 2005 Posts: 438 Location: central MA, USA
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
hope_full wrote:
SO I have two points/questions. One, why does it seem to be that men are more interested in this topic than women (generally)
Speaking 1) as a guy and 2) from many observations of how couples divide the household responsibilities, it may be that men are more traditionally expected to be the "strategic thinkers" for the household? (I have plenty of counter-examples, so I'm not claiming this is the way it is for most households, but it's probably at least a large minority of them.)
Indeed, my ex-wife and I settled quickly into a division that I would call strategic versus tactical w/r/t money matters. She was "tactics": watching for sales, managing & balancing the checkbook, etc. I was "strategy": figuring out how much we needed to be saving and investing, trying to carve that amount out of the budget, etc.
While my ex-wife was great at saving $5 off a grocery bill with coupons and sales, she really just did not want to be bothered with a longer-term view of money matters. Indeed, she downright did not want to contemplate any opinions or even facts that she interpreted as "pessimistic". Such as, for example, Peak Oil.
I believe this was partly due to the fact that she, while earning a paycheck, was far from the primary wage-earner. She evidenced some "magical thinking" about money; it always seemed to appear every two weeks, so it always would.
I don't claim that's the reason why women are not represented equally here. But it probably is a reason. Peak Oil is one of those long-term things, and it's also one that -- unless/until you learn enough about it to understand how huge the effects will be -- many probably think of as some sort of abstract issue for "techies" to deal with. Unlike Climate Change, which has mascots like cute polar bear cubs to get people at least claiming to care about it.
hope_full wrote:
two, what can I do with a GOOD, decent, honest, caring man who refuses to talk about this subject? He grew up in very modest means and put himself through college and post-grad school and I think he just can't bear to think/talk/ponder a contracting American economy. And I wonder if age matters? He's now almost 60 years old.
HF
Age may be a factor. He's nearly of my parents' age, and my father is a dyed-in-the-wool technophile. He's a retired engineer, quite bright, and certain that things like Peak Oil are merely technical problems that enough thought and money will solve. He reads a lot on the issue, surprisingly to me, but is quite certain it's ultimately a non-issue. I attribute some of this to his education, and some of it to the kind of technological changes that he has observed firsthand in his lifetime. He has firmly and probably permanently swallowed the "Progress" hook of post-WWII American culture.
I don't think there is anything you can do to change your DH's mind by way of conversation, or perhaps in any way at all. As others have, I recommend that you concentrate on making the kind of changes that you have, with his knowledge and approval.
I walk a somewhat fine line myself at home, with my now wife. I cannot talk about my worries for the worst scenarios of post-Peak-Oil, because she immediately subjectifies it in terms of what it might mean for our four-year-old daughter. It frightens her too much, I think, to think of mass starvation in the world.
OTOH, she is absolutely on board with making changes that save us money, or that reduce our footprint (especially carbon), or that I enjoy as hobbies. Hence: Line-drying laundry is okay with her. So is gardening. And learning to can food. And getting a flock of chickens. And stocking up on dry goods. And buying hand-powered appliances like a grain mill. Etc. Etc.
She sees goodness in these changes that are entirely unrelated to Peak Oil. And I can talk of Peak Oil in terms of rising energy costs, and the knock-on effects of that on food & everything shipped around, and the bad climate effects of emitting much more CO2 to get oil substitutes like from tar sands.
But Peak Oil just isn't her "thing". She doesn't read about it (except the odd article I'll forward to her), or probably think about directly. And I respect that. It's working pretty well for us, so far. And I like to think that if things truly do begin to get dire, she will not try to deny it.
I hope you can also find a kind of compromise like that, which works for the both of you.
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1424 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Men and women and disagreements about peak oil
I'm in the same boat as you, hope_full. I'm 45, my husband is almost 50. Just do what you can do.
Fortunately, we have a decent amount of cash and he doesn't mind me spending it (I used to never spend money, to a fault, so he sees my new 'hobbies' as a good thing. ). I'm having fun with my preps, which he sees as a plus also.
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