I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
People simply commute too far for their jobs. The solution is to move closer in to the inner-ring suburbs or even the city. People don't want to do it because of the crime situation. So I suggest a combination of huge carbon taxes + depopulate the inner ring of criminal elements = massive reduction in oil usage.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
"depopulate the inner ring of criminal elements"
wtf does that mean? Kill all the niggers?
Can't find the source now, but a few years ago there was a study that showed that it was far more likely to be killed or maimed in car accidents in the suburbs than to be hurt by violence in the city.
Fear of the city is mostly fear of "those people" (=racism).
Most people are hurt by people they know. If you don't associate with violent people, it is highly unlikely that you will be a victim of lethal violence. When it does happen it is news, so that's what you see.
I don't know why I'm bothering to discuss this with someone with so many obvious shortcomings on the brainpower front.
Your tax idea is great, but this is like telling a cigarette smoker that it would be a good idea to cut back. Given the current, right-wing inspired absolute dread of any taxes for any reason at any time, there is slim chance that any significant portion of politicians are going to risk their political hide to raise gas taxes.
I liked your "even the city," like this is some absolutely scary, radical idea. Many, many of us have been living happily in inner cities all of our lives, not contributing massively to the problem like you good folks in the god-forsaken, car-dependent suburbs and exurbs.
Your impulse to consolidate and flee the never-remotely-sustainable suburbs has merit, but your means are politically unlikely, on the one hand, and ignorant/hateful/bigoted...on the other.
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 637 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
Serial_Worrier wrote:
People simply commute too far for their jobs. The solution is to move closer in to the inner-ring suburbs or even the city. People don't want to do it because of the crime situation. So I suggest a combination of huge carbon taxes + depopulate the inner ring of criminal elements = massive reduction in oil usage.
Sorry, but an incredibly racist remark.
Let's have some facts:
1) More people die from car accidents than from murder/suicide combined.
2) Gentrification can revitalize the worse areas quite quickly.
3) People left the inner cities back when pollution from factories and overly crowded conditions made cities nearly uninhabitable.
4) States that allow concealed carry have drastic reduction in crime.
5) There is more than one city that has horrible high school graduation rates. Fix that and you'll fix a lot of problems.
So if cities invest in infrastructure, allow people to protect themselves, and make it possible for children to be educated then they don't need to resort to gestapo style police tactics to "clean up" the city. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4868 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
US DOJ crime statistics speak volumes on this issue. I suspect few have actually read through them. They are dry reading, but pointedly and frightfully accurate. I'll leave it at that.
Yes, much higher gasoline taxes would over a fairly short time effect interesting and profound demographic shifts ... two-way demographic shifts, I presume. It may be the best way to prevent delay the economic collapse of' many major inner cities and speed the inevitable decay of the outer suburbs. _________________ Got Dharma?
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
dohboi wrote:
"depopulate the inner ring of criminal elements"
wtf does that mean? Kill all the niggers?
Can't find the source now, but a few years ago there was a study that showed that it was far more likely to be killed or maimed in car accidents in the suburbs than to be hurt by violence in the city.
Fear of the city is mostly fear of "those people" (=racism).
.
I live in an inner city neighborhood and there are more than three abandoned homes on this street(and more than often intersection fights.). If you have a yard, you are lucky and the sound of police sirens is nothing new and guess what? i'm white and so is everyone else in the hood except a couple families.
I think it is just fear of poorer people in general that you get in the suburbs.
Why else would they have the gates? They want to keep out us animal-like lower class. lol
In a lot of neighborhood revitalization I see the families that lived there pushed out because they couldn't afford to stay. That is how revitalization goes, you push out the poor and bring in the rich!
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
eastbay wrote:
US DOJ crime statistics speak volumes on this issue. I suspect few have actually read through them. They are dry reading, but pointedly and frightfully accurate. I'll leave it at that.
How bout giving us the cliff's notes version? _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
Crime is only one of the reasons many people don't live in some cities.
Many people in my area moved outside some cities or never lived in city areas due to high property taxes, zoning laws, traffic, noise, pollution, poor street design, poor road design, poor access to main roads, poor or mediocre school systems, blighted properties, vacant properties, apartment buildings, non owner occupied multi-families, affordable housing projects, close neighbors, problematic neighbors, lack of privacy, small lots, small yards, small homes, small garages, no garages, older inefficient homes, homes with lead paint and asbestos, homes in need of too much work, limited parking, limited off-street parking, no room for expansion, no vacant building lots or acreage, no views of mountains, fields, lakes rivers, trees, no access to parks, outdoor recreation etc.
What's funny is that when myself and other developers, builders or investors have renovated city homes, apartment buildings etc, people complain that the rents, leases, or mortgage payments and taxes are too high. People want to live in a nice home or apartment in a nice area with a good school system, but they don't want to pay market rates.
From an employment, transportation and quality of life perspective, some of the suburbs are the best places to live, but the cost of land, existing homes, new construction homes, rentals and modern building codes, zoning laws, limits on subdivision, lot size, road frontage, manufactured homes, multi-families and other deed restrictions have priced many people out of the market.
The suburbs have the large building lots and large tracts of undeveloped or underdeveloped farmland and acreage necessary for residential, commercial and industrial growth. Because of this their tax base is constantly growing so they can offer tax breaks and incentives to developers, builders, businesses and industry which creates more jobs, more home buyers, more property tax and sales tax revenue, better schools, better roads, public transportation etc.
On the subject of taxation, myself, family, friends and many of customers are already paying more than our fair share of income taxes, property taxes and sales taxes as well as providing housing, creating jobs and stimulating the economy. More taxation will impact the poor dependent on our financial support.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
MarkJ wrote:
Crime is only one of the reasons many people don't live in some cities.
Many people in my area moved outside some cities or never lived in city areas due to high property taxes, zoning laws, traffic, noise, pollution, poor street design, poor road design, poor access to main roads, poor or mediocre school systems, blighted properties, vacant properties, apartment buildings, non owner occupied multi-families, affordable housing projects, close neighbors, problematic neighbors, lack of privacy, small lots, small yards, small homes, small garages, no garages, older inefficient homes, homes with lead paint and asbestos, homes in need of too much work, limited parking, limited off-street parking, no room for expansion, no vacant building lots or acreage, no views of mountains, fields, lakes rivers, trees, no access to parks, outdoor recreation etc.
.....
What you are describing is the late 20th century version of city life.
What you say is technically true but I believe the *cause* of much of the problems has nothing to do with the "city" per say but because all the middle class people moved out.
Besides there has been a drastic change in how society views the suburbs now. It is no longer an "escape" from the "problems" of the cities. With $4 gas suburbia is nothing more than a VERY expensive living arrangement. Just wait till gas hits $10 and it will no longer be just expensive but financially impossible.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
The suburbs are already dead. Why do you think they have become the place to mine for copper pipes?
The homes of the upper classes always turn into the homes of the poor. Those lawyer foyers will turn into a huge cold entryway into a warren of tiny apartments.
The smart set will be moving back into the inner-ring suburbs that used to be serviced by the streetcar. They will be much easier to access by mass transit and the houses will be renovated for energy efficiency. The status symbol will be the solar hot water system on the roof, instead of the SUV. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
cube wrote:
What you say is technically true but I believe the *cause* of much of the problems has nothing to do with the "city" per say but because all the middle class people moved out.
It's a combination of literally dozens of issues, but the physical limitations have a lot to do with it. My grandfather built homes and commercial buildings outside the cities due to the lack of vacant land and lack of parking many decades before I was born. He built or renovated many homes in the cities as well, but labor, materials, demolition, hauling and landfill costs were cheap. Building/mechanical/fire/safety codes were also nonexistent, lax or they weren't enforced. Nobody worried about lead paint, lead pipes, lead solder, lead flanges, asbestos shingles/siding/insulation etc. Many building materials were burned, buried or dumped onsite. Mills used to dump onsite, down banks or into streams, ponds etc. Much of the industry and corner shops in the cities were dependent on cheap labor and the lack of safety and environmental laws.
Many of our older cities in the Northeast were built or modified when walking, horses, wagons, sleighs, trolley cars and trains were the primary forms of transportation. Many homes were very large, but they had no driveways, single driveways or shared driveways. Streets, alleys, buildings, housing, businesses and industry weren't designed for cars, trucks, tractor trailers, heavy traffic and parking, hence why shopping malls, super centers, businesses, homes, housing developments, hospitals, professional buildings, hotels and industry were built outside the cities. There were always homes outside the cities but years ago they were occupied by farmers, horse breeders, loggers, business owners, wealthy tourists etc
Quote:
Besides there has been a drastic change in how society views the suburbs now. It is no longer an "escape" from the "problems" of the cities. With $4 gas suburbia is nothing more than a VERY expensive living arrangement. Just wait till gas hits $10 and it will no longer be just expensive but financially impossible.
People in the boondocks perhaps, but not the suburbs, villages and semi rural areas where many people lived and worked for over 200 years. We have public transportation that brings people from some of the rural areas to work or shop in the suburbs as well, plus we have an excellent rail, canal, thruway and road systems in may areas. Many homes in the rural areas are vacation homes, second homes, camps and ski homes owned by the wealthy. Many have been there long before the automobile. One of my relatives started a stage coach run to service some of the areas due to demand before the rail and road system.
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
To: MarkJ
This is the cube scenario:
I think the fastest way to bring suburbia to a screeching halt is unemployment. Almost every family is dual income these days. If 1 spouse losses their job (no amount of clever budget cutting) can makes things work if it literally takes 1 income just to pay the full home mortgage.
This is why I don't buy the "energy efficiency" will save suburbia argument. No amount of energy efficiency can mitigate the above scenario. Aside declaring bankruptcy and giving up the house, which some people will do, the only option left would be to literally turn the house into a mini-apartment and start renting rooms out. This is how I see suburbia slowly contracting.
The most rent-able homes will be near job centers aka urban core. The ones to far away will be abandoned, the owner will declare bankruptcy, the bank that funded the loan will go under, and as what Revi said: the copper pipe thieves will finish the rest.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4376 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
cube wrote:
With $4 gas suburbia is nothing more than a VERY expensive living arrangement. Just wait till gas hits $10 and it will no longer be just expensive but financially impossible.
Wishful thinking. Gas isn't the only way to travel. Don't assume suburbanites won't pursue any viable options.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4376 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Suggestion for reducing oil usage
cube wrote:
The most rent-able homes will be near job centers aka urban core. The ones to far away will be abandoned, the owner will declare bankruptcy, the bank that funded the loan will go under, and as what Revi said: the copper pipe thieves will finish the rest.
I hope that happens because then there will be prime bugout real estate for pennies on the dollar that isn't hundreds of miles in the backwoods.
cube wrote:
To: mos6507
read my previous post.
the cube scenario
and there's your reply.
If people are unemployed it won't matter where they live. If they are unemployed simply because they can't get to work, then the EVs will help mitigate that, or telecommuting. Telecommuting is not an illusion. I'm going to be doing it this fall. How successful it will turn to be, I dunno, but I've got the initial commitment from my boss. So if I wanted I could move anywhere with an internet connection.
Sometimes people get too fixated on the negativity or wish fulfilment. Some people really do prefer suburban life and will pursue creative solutions to stay there. I mean, if people really wanted to live in the city, they'd be there already. If they do move to the city, it will be only after they've exhausted other options.
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