I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
There is a hadith 1400 years old that discusses this topic. It mentions that the river Euphrates will uncover a mountain of gold and 99 out of 100 people that approach it will be killed.
I presume that gold is now black gold or oil?
The question is, how do you interpret this hadith in our current times. Will Europe, Russia, China and US make Iraq the new battle ground for the largest world oil reserves (hopefully it will not be under the pretext of WMD's or other lies)? Is Einstein correct in that saying that the last war will be with sticks?
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 804 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
Quote:
There is a hadith 1400 years old that discusses this topic.
How can a hadith be anything other than 1400 years old?
Quote:
It mentions that the river Euphrates will uncover a mountain of gold and 99 out of 100 people that approach it will be killed.
I think you mean the Euphrates will cover a mountain of gold. That would be pretty cool if it could uncover the gold.
Any actual proof of this hadith? Never heard of it? Can you give us the actual hadith rather than just talking about it? _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13064 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
Volume 9, Book 88, Number 235:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Soon the river "Euphrates" will disclose the treasure (the mountain) of gold, so whoever will be present at that time should not take anything of it." Al-A'raj narrated from Abii Huraira that the Prophet said the same but he said, "It (Euphrates) will uncover a mountain of gold (under it)."
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 804 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
Quote:
The internets is a wonderful thing.
Thanks. I have labs due tomorrow so I can't waste (too much) time on PO. _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
Thanks Ludi for finding that hadith. It is interesting to note that the hadith states, "whoever is present should not take from it".
Maybe we should leave the reserves as they are until there is better technology available to extract and effeciently burn hydrocarbons rather than allowing fear and greed to dictate events in this world.
Furthermore, we in Surah Rahman, we are reminded of the favours of Allah then told that we should not transgress the balance in nature (055.008). This implies that man will have the ability to destroy nature and the balance that exists eg. climate change. There are some references in the Quran about the sky being covered with smoke.
Therefore we have two options to the dwindling oil reserves.
1/ Produce more technological advance machinery to extract every drop out of the Earth and wage war on defenceless nations that can not protect their existing reserves.
or
2/ Preserve the oil that is currently present, avoid using hydrocarbons as an energy source and develop cleaner/ safer technology.
Unfortunately, the powers that be continue to believe that might is right. They are preparing for a never ending war on terror (oil) and the destruction of the planet in the process. As it mentions in the Quran, if you give man a mountain of gold, he will wish for two mountains.
Other relevant hadiths have pointed to the gulf war. It mentions two nations fighting of the same faith, the dajjal will come in waves from the east, there will be a fire in hijaz (Saudi Arabia) that will light up the necks of the camels in Basra (Iraq). This reminds me of when Saddam Hussein ignited the oil fields leaving a massive environmental disaster where the smoke was so thick that the sun was not visible for one month.
These are signs of the end of times and once they start happening, they will occur in a rapid succession.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4329 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
mass wrote:
It is interesting to note that the hadith states, "whoever is present should not take from it".
Maybe we should leave the reserves as they are until there is better technology available to extract and efficiently burn hydrocarbons rather than allowing fear and greed to dictate events in this world.
Furthermore, we in Surah Rahman, we are reminded of the favours of Allah then told that we should not transgress the balance in nature (055.008). This implies that man will have the ability to destroy nature and the balance that exists eg. climate change. There are some references in the Quran about the sky being covered with smoke.
Therefore we have two options to the dwindling oil reserves.
1/ Produce more technological advance machinery to extract every drop out of the Earth and wage war on defenceless nations that can not protect their existing reserves.
or
2/ Preserve the oil that is currently present, avoid using hydrocarbons as an energy source and develop cleaner/ safer technology.
Unfortunately, the powers that be continue to believe that might is right. They are preparing for a never ending war on terror (oil) and the destruction of the planet in the process. As it mentions in the Quran, if you give man a mountain of gold, he will wish for two mountains.
Other relevant hadiths have pointed to the gulf war. It mentions two nations fighting of the same faith, the dajjal will come in waves from the east, there will be a fire in hijaz (Saudi Arabia) that will light up the necks of the camels in Basra (Iraq). This reminds me of when Saddam Hussein ignited the oil fields leaving a massive environmental disaster where the smoke was so thick that the sun was not visible for one month.
These are signs of the end of times and once they start happening, they will occur in a rapid succession.
I commend you for having an orderly view of things from your perspective, but I'm afraid your suggestions (leaving the oil in the ground especially) presuppose a world inhabited by something other than human beings.
I also think that trying to fit prophecy to specific current events is usually a frustrating matter because the world never seems to end on schedule.
However, if your faith gives meaning to your world and peace in the face of adversity, then good for you.
I admit, though, that I struggle to understand how so many Muslims can commit acts of violence as an expression of their faith.
I grew up in a Christian tradition and I'm still trying to work all of that out, but any time I hear of someone doing something crazy in the name of Christianity I think to myself "that person is crazy or an idiot, or both." I don't hear that same condemnation from Muslim leaders when Muslims commit acts of violence in the name of Islam.
Can you help clarify this issue, because I think it is something a lot of non-Muslims wonder about.
Considering that peak oil is going to create more and more friction between Muslim oil exporting countries and non-Muslim oil importing countries, I think that discussing the role of violence in the Muslim faith is relevant to the question of the Muslim perspective on peak oil. _________________
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
I understand your perspective about Muslims. You have watched countless hollywood movies about Muslim terrorism, you have watched news stories of individual terrorists or organisations committing crimes. In fact, any violent act committed by a Muslim anywhere in the world is given a meaning of a global movement that is attacking our way of life.
The reality is clearly different. Who is terrorising who?
You only need to look at the plight of the Palestinians, Chechnan, Bosnians, Albanians, Afghans, Iraqi's, Somalians, Algerian etc.. etc..
Sure there are a few violent Muslim individual who have lost the plot after witnessing their families being killed. But isn't state sponsored terrorism far worse.
There are no WMD's and Al Qaida is a fabricated organisation previously supported by the CIA. It is used as a tool to justify the war on terror which really should be a war of terror.
It has always been about money, in this case oil (Iraq/ Chechnya/ Iran), gas (Palestine/ Afghanistan), land (Bosnia/ Palestine), power (Algeria/ Somalia).
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4329 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
mass wrote:
I understand your perspective about Muslims. You have watched countless hollywood movies about Muslim terrorism, you have watched news stories of individual terrorists or organisations committing crimes. In fact, any violent act committed by a Muslim anywhere in the world is given a meaning of a global movement that is attacking our way of life.
The reality is clearly different. Who is terrorising who?
You only need to look at the plight of the Palestinians, Chechnan, Bosnians, Albanians, Afghans, Iraqi's, Somalians, Algerian etc.. etc..
I noted that bad U.S. foreign policy was one of the causes of terrorism. I am not disagreeing with you on that matter.
What I am curious about is the basis in faith for meeting violence with more violence. Where has this worked before? As I have discussed in other threads, I believe violence is a downward spiral EVERY TIME and it is simply a cycle with no resolution. That is why non-violent demonstration has had such unlikely and dramatic success--it breaks the cycle of violence and neutralizes the opponents military advantage. As crazy as it sounds, it has worked many times.
But I'm not here to sell non-violence as a vehicle for change, what I am trying to understand is the basis in the Muslim faith, the legitimization if you will, of violence to achieve a political purpose, or suicide to achieve a political purpose.
Quote:
Sure there are a few violent Muslim individual who have lost the plot after witnessing their families being killed. But isn't state sponsored terrorism far worse.
Come on. You know that we are not talking about a "few" and we are not only talking about people who have witnessed their families being killed.
Quote:
There are no WMD's and Al Qaida is a fabricated organisation previously supported by the CIA. It is used as a tool to justify the war on terror which really should be a war of terror.
The corrupt governments of many Muslim nations aren't in on it?
Quote:
It has always been about money, in this case oil (Iraq/ Chechnya/ Iran), gas (Palestine/ Afghanistan), land (Bosnia/ Palestine), power (Algeria/ Somalia).
Of course it's about money. What else would it be about? What drives human conflict other than greed and pride?
That's why I'm asking you about what it is in the Muslim faith that leads Muslims to fight in the name of Islam? I'm sure it's not money, but I suspect it may be pride. I assume that pride is not a trait to be admired in a Muslim, is it?
Again, I go back to my own faith, and I just don't find the seeds of violence in it, FOR ME. In the past, many people have committed horrible acts of violence in the name of Christianity and I think they were delusional and/or power mad people who were using religion as a pretext for their own self-serving objectives. When Bush talks about his faith I cringe, because it is ridiculous to try to justify all of the U.S. foreign policy disasters of the last 8 years through Christianity.
Any time I see a person commit an act of violence in the name of religion, I think to myself how religion is supposed to lead to spiritual growth and improvement (as I understand it, anyway), but for that person religion led them to destroy their body, along with other bodies, in an expression of pure rage. I always wonder to myself what would have become of the same person if they had not been so radical in their beliefs.
How is killing civilians a legitimate act in a political struggle? Because the other side does it? That's not a good argument. What does it accomplish other than to embolden the enemy even more?
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
What I am curious about is the basis in faith for meeting violence with more violence. Where has this worked before?
I agree, two wrongs don't make it right. The Quran tells us to repel evil with good. However, people also have a right to defend themselves. Muslims are against the aggressor regardless of the faith. Justice is extremely important. It states in the Quran off memory, "do not let your hatred of a people prevent you from being just, be just, this is closer to piety".
Muslims have never been a powerful force. They started with a small group of people who were tortured in Arabia. We do not rely on military might to acheive our goals as we believe that right is might.
Islam has never spread on violence or the sword as stated by some people. Entire nations accepted Islam due to the wisdom, practicality, beauty and peaceful preaching. Even those who conquered the Muslims such as the tartars later accepted Islam.
The corrupt governments of many Muslim nations aren't in on it?
Sure they are. Why would the US donate billions of dollar to Egypt each year.
That's why I'm asking you about what it is in the Muslim faith that leads Muslims to fight in the name of Islam? I'm sure it's not money, but I suspect it may be pride. I assume that pride is not a trait to be admired in a Muslim, is it?
It is not money or pride. It is not even about rage or hatred. It is simply about justice. Suicide is not permitted in Islam but without a legitimate Muslim leader, individuals will interpret Islam differently depending on their knowledge, experience, circumstances and level of faith.
How is killing civilians a legitimate act in a political struggle? Because the other side does it? That's not a good argument. What does it accomplish other than to embolden the enemy even more?
______
I think you are starting to understand Islam. We are not permitted to kill civilians under andy circumstances and the supposed acts of the individuals do not serve any purpose other than allowing criminal governments to commit horrendous crimes.___________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4329 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
mass, thanks for your replies. Don't feel obligated to turn this into a response to Islamic extremism. No need.
I am interested in your thoughts (or anyone else's) on how the Muslim faith will affect or inform your perspective on peak oil and its effects. _________________
Joined: Mar 25, 2008 Posts: 804 Location: Alif Lam Mim
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective
Anyway, back to the OP:
I'm not a master at the Classical Arabic language. Are you? I wonder because of the word "gold" used. Does it have, in Quranic Arabic, any uses other than strictly a very valuable metal with a periodic symbol of Au? Can it mean in general terms "something that is extremely valuable" etc?
If it's only to be taken in a strict sense of the word, then it can't mean anything other than there being a large amount of Au and not "black gold", "green gold", etc.
But if it can mean "gold" in general terms, then I'd hate to be an American soldier because they won't likely make it out of Iraq alive.
I still can't find the hadith in Arabic. I have two e-copies of Bukhari and Book 88 is not a book about the end times/future predictions, but instead about inheritances (IIRC). I'll look again when I'm at home, though. _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
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