Do people who don't know, really know?

Narz

This thread was triggered by Ludi's comments on another thread (she mentioned that people really do know about the energy & ecological perils we face), as well as various thoughts & conversations I've had over the years.

What my paradoxical sounding query is asking is - Do people who "don't know" (the details) about Peak Oil, about the possibility that we're not heading towards a George Jetson future, about our ecological situation, etc. really "know" (intuitively understand)?

Since we can't really, truly understand another besides ourselves, I'll speak for me.

As a kid I did get a sense that there were many things wrong with the world but I didn't know how to articulate them or have anyone to articulate them to. I remember wondering what all the ingrediant names to my microwaved canned pasta were. I remember feeling it was strange that nobody seemed to make anything (I went thru a phase where I asked where everything was from but quickly quit after getting mostly vague answers like "a factory" or "china). I naturally hated waste & enjoyed reusing things & finding things (my favorite childhood piece of furniture was a metal bedside table I found while on a walk with my mother on garbage day).

But cultural indoctrination is strong & I didn't think about these issues daily or even monthly for most of my life (though my vague feelings remained under the surface).

As for peak oil I remember learning that fossil fuels were nonrenewable in school but this disconnected sound bite didn't have much of an effect on me because I'd long since given up trying to understand how electricity worked & the global economy functioned (mainly due to vague answers or, more often, none at all).

I was lucky. For all my parents flaws my mother read to me & I didn't watch much TV (plus I got about 6 months of partial breastfeeding) so I probably got somewhat of a better start than most. Looking around at parents & children in parks & supermarkets I wonder if they've thought about these issues &/or have any "intuitive" feelings about them. I knew a guy from Florida who believed the world (managed better) could hold 100 billion or so humans, he also had some pretty out there religious ideas that he must've known on some level were ridiculous (a weird version of Creationism really). I wonder whether he really believed in his heart those things though or whether it was just some sort of way to avoid accepting the full measure of what he really thought would happen.

As for me, it's hard to know what's really real. Everyday life on the street (and in parking lots, stores, places of business) and discussion here are in such sharp contrast sometimes I marvel at it. I do this especially when I watch TV but this is rare. It's amazing how the power of multimedia and social proof (other people) shape people's perceptions of normal. Scary really. This was very apparent at the hospital where my girlfriend gave birth. She originally wanted a natural birth but the midwives claimed she "risked out" (after taking her money) so she ended up there. So many of her requests got weird looks simply because 99.9% of the population simply "go with the flow".

I feel like I'm not articulating myself as well as I'd like but anyway, roll with the thread however you like. I'm curious as to if other people have thought about this much.
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If you mean subconsciously, I don't know. But on the surface I think most people are about as out of the loop as they could be. Many people think the recent runup of oil prices has been all about speculation - I've heard that firm opinion expressed many times by people I know, and on the radio - just this morning in fact. Many more people don't even know that oil is a finite resource, and in fact have never thought about it at all.

I do think there is a growing feeling out there that something is wrong. But most people still haven't bothered to find out what it is. Just my experience.
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Ludi

Hmm,did I say that? I think I might have actually said it almost seems like being willfully ignorant if they don't know the impact humans are having on the planet. But I was corrected - smart people were not able to find out about this because the information was hidden from them, apparently.

I agree it is extremely difficult to know what is "really real." I struggle with it daily.
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baha

All my life I've been waiting for the disaster. Sometimes I wonder if it was because when I was in grade school we were constantly forced to watch civil defense movies about the coming nuclear war.
Damn right there is something wrong with today's society. When spoon fed spoiled brats that become movie stars and make millions of dollars are taking anti-depressants there is something wrong. When your self worth is measured by the size of the car you drive there is something wrong. When teenagers think the answer to their problems is to take a gun to school and shoot everyone there is something wrong.

Questions is, how do we get ourselves out of this? People aren't really stupid, they just don't care and don't think about it. The sooner we have a real disaster the sooner we can come out the other side.
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JPL

Minor background in Mining Engineering & Geology & I know there were at least 300 undergraduates back in the class of '84 that know all about oil depletion & when it was going to run out because we did all the stuff back then with graphs & everything.

I remember my lecturer pointing with a cynical grin at the predicted depletion curves and saying 'Of course, without that (oil) you won't get the rest of this (the other stuff) out of the ground anyhow. But you're all clever chaps, I'm sure you'll figure a way out of it by then.'

People (engineers & geologists) know all this crap - they have for a long time. But then it's a very cynical industry. Oh, what fun we have ahead...

JP

Madpaddy · Expert Joined: Jun 25, 2004 Posts: 2124

Narz,

I believe that people who don't know really do know deep down.

Similarly, people who do know, in many cases refuse to accept.

Personally, I've gone way past the point of debate.

I know that the game is up. I believe that the next 60 months will see TEOTWAWKI.

I suppose, I've been a bit of a plonker the last year or so on PO but IMO 99% of threads are pure arse. A thread with the title

Farknight · Tar Sands Joined: May 29, 2008 Posts: 61

Bottom line is that Amerikans have devolved from a hardy nation of pioneers who made do in extreme conditions, no help from the government and somehow survived to thrive into today's consumer herd of "me, me, me, mine, mine" suburbanites/urbanites.

We are in the midst of a generation or two of folks that have been spoon fed by the richest empire ever known to planet earth bar none. That is unraveling and yes, I believe many people are feeling a wee bit weird as the pablum on HGTV, the N, HBO or whatever starts to ring false. Our ancestors (remote and a few generations back) worked dam hard to build up the US and we are still living on that massive capital to this very day. However, we squander it massively both at the personal and national political level. Daily we see our power diminish.

Our belief systems have morphed into far this and far that cults of death and exclusion, based on mystical books actually decided upon by Councils of Bishops who controlled highly profitable abbeys and voted to contain the masses through almighty power lest privilege be lost for the few. In other realms, deity has been channeled into the very real political anger of poverty and exclusion our empire's sucking of global resources hath cast on the everyman of the third world. Terrorism is the result and it has brought us to our knees to the absurd point that now we suspect everyone and strip search grandmas who look a bit odd to a $13 buck an hour TSA goon.

Our paradigm is shifting and we all basically know that the national guvment has no clue and that the club of wealth that runs it basically sees the masses as cannon fodder and potential gardeners. Many people revel in the sheer thrill of idiocy and aspiring to the lowest common denominator, a way to dumb down what we see and know. Others, prepare for the worst or perhaps strive to hitch their wagon to the uber .5% that can buy a Johhny Depp Doomstead.

In short, 25 odd percent of the world's oil and resources cannot continue to flow here to 4% of the population. Someone, in fact many someones, must lose invariably in this equation. We are currently experiencing the very beginning pangs of the "Great Correction". It will have massive impact over time on our lives and those that see it for what it is might be able to at least survive if not somewhat thrive, albeit in a new paradigm of living. But, let's face it, man typically does changes on this scale rather badly, with bloodshed, violence, plague, disease and starvation. Why would this impending future be somehow different? I desperately wish someone can show how clearly we overcome this situation and move beyond to a more peaceful and blissful planet without massive suffering.
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JPL · Last edited by JPL on Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Madpaddy · Expert Joined: Jun 25, 2004 Posts: 2124

JPL,

TEOTWAWKI doesn't mean zombie hordes, nuclear war and trench warfare in central europe against the Chinese.

I do believe, it will mean rationing of resources, poverty, hunger and civil unrest.
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skippyreef · Coal Joined: Jul 26, 2008 Posts: 17

I think that people have a talent for self disilluisionment and denial of the truth. This is the reason that people are able to exist as they do and not feel guilty about the lives we lead while so many other suffer for it. It is the reason the rich can stand proudly on the backs of the poor and not shed a single tear to quench the thirsty at the bottom of the economical pyramid.

Many of my friends deny that global warming is real and believe we can think ourselves out of climate change. WE can invent new ways to retrieve oil and other hydrocarbons. We can mold our world to fit our needs is what the mass consensus is. The world is mostly made of Joe Sixpack's and Molly 20 ouncer's and these people are not hard to lead around. Throw in a few passages from the bible and scream that your anti-abortion or gay marriage and they are on your side. It is easy to divert there attention from the truth because most people have perpetual ADD now.

JPL

HEADER_RACK · Intermediate Crude Joined: Feb 15, 2007 Posts: 540

gt1370a · Heavy Crude Joined: Apr 02, 2005 Posts: 359

I wondered that, until I read the comments here. No, they clearly don't have a clue.

threadbear · Expert Joined: Jan 22, 2005 Posts: 7738

Google "cognitive dissonance." The issue of environmental degradation, exists as a body of fuzzy incomplete thoughts, isolated in the depths of their subconscious. Like a swarm of perturbed gnats, these thoughtlets occasionally pester the fringes of conscience, before they are swatted back into oblivion.

bkwillia · Tar Sands Joined: Aug 20, 2007 Posts: 70

Yes, ppl really know because we have evolved from an environment of scarcity and conflict. Their behavior actually reflects this inherant knowledge by the way they are never satisfied with what we have, and are reluctant to freely share with others. They know this period of excess will come to an end, and dont want to left with nothing when its gone. The rat race is an effort to get ahead while the getting is good. Nobody will admit that end times are near, because nobody ever feels satisified in their preparations. They want to enjoy what comfort they have without pondering the possibility that it will be short lived, but are all the while driven to seek greater degrees of comfort with out any consideration to what is sustainable. Sustainability is a goal for those are planning for stability. Excessive consumption and accumulation of material wealth is a behavior of someone who anticipates scarcity.