I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else’s out there.
I was the first to call for a 100% auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.
That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel and other alternative energy approaches.
The only thing I’ve said with respect to coal, I haven’t been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it.
So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can.
It’s just that it will bankrupt them." _________________ Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4667 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
It would be even more revealing if he doesn't believe in bankrupting the coal industry.
Obama is showning himself to be a traditional politician. He will say anything to anyone to win votes and collect donations.
If we crush the domestic coal industry, just like we attempted to crush the domestic oil industry under Jimmy Carter's administration, we WILL see electricity shortages.
There just isn't any large scale alternative that can be ramped up fast enough if we keep fighting against the Big Three (oil, coal, and gas). _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
Tyler_JC said:
Quote:
There just isn't any large scale alternative that can be ramped up fast enough if we keep fighting against the Big Three (oil, coal, and gas).
This is only a problem if one believes in peak oil and gas. That is a paradigm that has not yet registered in much of Washington. Unfortunately, by the time this becomes generally accepted in the Great Halls of national wisdom, there will be very little funding remaining to address the problem.
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
shortonoil wrote:
Tyler_JC said:
Quote:
There just isn't any large scale alternative that can be ramped up fast enough if we keep fighting against the Big Three (oil, coal, and gas).
This is only a problem if one believes in peak oil and gas. That is a paradigm that has not yet registered in much of Washington. Unfortunately, by the time this becomes generally accepted in the Great Halls of national wisdom, there will be very little funding remaining to address the problem.
What would they fund it with? The toilet paper Ben & Henry are printing?
What would be the point of building coal plants? If you are short on oil to run the caterpillars backhoes and daywoo front end loaders, how would you get the coal out of the ground in sufficient quantities? And then transport said coal around the country to all the freshly built coal plants?
If you accept Peak Oil, coal doesn't resolve the problem anyhow. Its a bridge that works only briefly, and why spend billions to build a bridge that will be obsolete as soon as the diesel to supply the plant runs gets too expensive to mine with?
Demand destruction should take care of electricity problems for quite some time. There will be plenty of Dark Skyscrapers on Wall Street, leaving plenty of spare capacity.
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 6270 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
ReverseEngineer wrote:
What would be the point of building coal plants? If you are short on oil to run the caterpillars backhoes and daywoo front end loaders, how would you get the coal out of the ground in sufficient quantities? And then transport said coal around the country to all the freshly built coal plants?
The point of building coal-fired power plants is to generate electricity.
Coal can be mined using electrical excavators and transported using trains powered by electricity. Electricity is used to power subways, streetcars, personal cars, heat homes, run industry and businesses, etc. _________________ "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
The best place for a coal fired generating plant is seldom near the coal supply, if current practice is any clue. It would take one HELLUVA lot of wire to power 5,000 HP coal trains 120 miles in our case from where is is mined to where it is used. Much more practical to divert diesel from other uses, such as trucks, to trains for long distance transport of goods AND coal, and transition the remaining trucks to natural gas as an intermediate answer. Biodiesel raised, processed, and used on farms only, is being done now, and could cover our food supply needs for an intermediate answer, and free up some conventional diesel for things like coal transport.
There is no SINGLE answer to declining oil production. There are a lot of small things that could help transition to a more sustainable life. Electric powered trains can be part of those things, in urban transit systems, and might be viable in some coal mining, (deep mines use it now for safety), but strip mines as we have Here in Indiana aren't very amenable to electrical power (too much power needed too far from the sources), and often there are monster trucks used to get the coal from the draglines to the processing, and then to the trains. Nor does electrical power work very well for mountain top removal, as in the Appalachians.
The money will ultimately make these choices, so sit back and enjoy the show. Life is going to get different pretty quickly, I think. As for the politicos, an earlier poster hit it--they say what it takes to get elected. (Then they do whatever they want.) _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4667 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
Starvid wrote:
Tyler_JC wrote:
There just isn't any large scale alternative that can be ramped up fast enough if we keep fighting against the Big Three (oil, coal, and gas).
Did the Gentleman miss the picture just above his post?
I was assuming that Obama also opposes nuclear power. He does take a lot of his funding from the more radical wings of the "green" movement and has stated in the debates that he is only lukewarm towards the entire industry.
We could build lots of nuclear plants if the government would issue permits. So long as state, local, and federal governments stand in the way, it will be very difficult. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2877 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
Tyler_JC wrote:
Starvid wrote:
Tyler_JC wrote:
There just isn't any large scale alternative that can be ramped up fast enough if we keep fighting against the Big Three (oil, coal, and gas).
Did the Gentleman miss the picture just above his post?
I was assuming that Obama also opposes nuclear power. He does take a lot of his funding from the more radical wings of the "green" movement and has stated in the debates that he is only lukewarm towards the entire industry.
We could build lots of nuclear plants if the government would issue permits. So long as state, local, and federal governments stand in the way, it will be very difficult.
Obama is pro-nuclear, from Illinois, and have received more campaign contributions from the nuclear industry, especially from Exelon, than McCain has. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 942 Location: I have a whole ward
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
"The coal industry will pass on these costs to everyone else. The net effect is a decline in the standard of living for everyone as more money gets sucked out of the system and into government coffers. The effect will be disastrous and long lasting. Obama can call this a tax on the coal companies, but it really is a tax that will hit everyone. 50% of power in the nation is generated from coal. Hundreds of thousands of jobs are in the coal industry. Many states are heavily reliant on the coal industry for taxes.
Companies will go out of business after not being able to absorb the higher energy costs as the coal companies pass on the higher costs of doing business.
It's a domino effect that impact every sector of the economy." _________________ Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2877 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
"The net effect is a decline in the standard of living for everyone as more money gets sucked out of the system and into government coffers"
The government will hardly just sit on the money, but distribute it back into the economy in the form of lower taxes (or other things, like infrastructure investments). This will strongly stimulate the economy, especially if the tax cuts (like they'll likely will) are given to the middle and lower classes who'll spend the money they get. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4667 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
Starvid wrote:
"The net effect is a decline in the standard of living for everyone as more money gets sucked out of the system and into government coffers"
The government will hardly just sit on the money, but distribute it back into the economy in the form of lower taxes (or other things, like infrastructure investments). This will strongly stimulate the economy, especially if the tax cuts (like they'll likely will) are given to the middle and lower classes who'll spend the money they get.
Or the money could get spent on foreign wars, bridges to nowhere,
indoor rainforests in Iowa, or other wasteful projects that contribute nothing to the economy.
Government is almost always less efficient at distributing capital than the free market.
If you create a massive new tax on the coal industry, you could very easily kill the industry. It's a highly capital intensive endeavor that cannot succeed if the profit margins get squeezed by excessive, punitive taxation.
If I were to pass a law that created a $25,000 tax per SUV and cut income taxes on the middle class by the same dollar amount (revenue neutral), would the SUV industry survive?
Of course not!
The tax revenue would vanish as demand for SUVs cratered. Then the tax cuts would have to be rescinded in order to balance the budget.
Consumers would end up with no SUVs and no tax cuts.
The same could easily happen to the coal industry.
We have to be careful about picking winners and losers in the economy. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
If you colledt all the printed copies of the patriot bill, and use them to power electric generating steam plants we could effectively eliminate coal. Ever seen how big that thing is?
Coal is the most efficient way of generating large quantities of electricity.
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Bankrupting the coal industry
As usual this is a YMMV situation. A government can fight a war for a few trillion dollars, or secure health care for every person in the nation for the next decade. A market can expand needed services based on total (including externalities) costs or see wealth concrentrated in a minority for their personal gain... The list goes on. An organization will behave according to the interests of the group/s controlling it. _________________
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