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allenwrench
Intermediate Crude
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VMarcHart
Light Sweet Crude
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 Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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They shouldn't take themselves off the grid. I wouldn't.
If they have means to store the energy, it will probably work. But energy storage is tricky. |
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steam_cannon
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Location: MA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| VMarcHart wrote: | They shouldn't take themselves off the grid. I wouldn't.
If they have means to store the energy, it will probably work.
But energy storage is tricky. |
Tricky, definitely tricky. But there have been some success stories
using technologies like flow batteries so maybe not as tricky as it
used to be. It's at least plausible...
Flow batteries, cheaper than lead acid, large scale storage
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic35412.html
| steam_cannon wrote: | | metaefficient wrote: |
Australian Island Using Flow Batteries To Store Wind Power
April 5th, 2007
King Island is a small island off the Australian coast, near Tasmania.
King Island isn’t connected to the mainland power grid, and apart
from its own small wind farm it relied for a long time on diesel
generators for its electricity. That changed in 2003 when the
local utility company installed a mammoth rechargeable battery
which ensures that as little wind energy as possible goes to waste.
When the wind is strong, the wind farm’s turbines generate more
electricity than the islanders need. The battery is there to soak up
the excess and pump it out again on days when the wind fades and
the turbines’ output falls. The battery installation has almost
halved the quantity of fuel burnt by the diesel generators,
saving not only money but also at least 2000 tonnes of carbon
dioxide emissions each year...
http://tinyurl.com/2fztt6
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So as you can see, flow batteries are a technology worth keeping
an eye on. They have been shown to amplify the usefulness of
unreliable technologies like solar and wind. With King Island, if
they doubled their wind installation, it seems reasonable to
consider that they could supply their current electric needs with
importing almost no fuel. This is not to say king island could grow
their energy needs without end. But that this technology should be
considered as it may be a useful tool for transition and sustainability.
Some things to ask next might be, how recyclable/serviceable are
the battery fluids... In fact there are a lot of questions to ask, but
this looks like a technology worth investing time asking questions. |
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smallpoxgirl
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Joined: Nov 08, 2004
Posts: 6278
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| steam_cannon wrote: | Tricky, definitely tricky. But there have been some success stories
using technologies like flow batteries so maybe not as tricky as it
used to be. It's at least plausible... |
Chatanooga, TN had a solution that always seemed very reasonable to me. They pump water up a big hill during periods of low demand. Then when demand increases, the pump becomes a generator and they let the water come back down and basically generate hydroelectric. It seems like a dirt simple system that could easily be employed elsewhere.
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I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS |
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VMarcHart
Light Sweet Crude
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Posts: 1140
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| steam_cannon wrote: | | Tricky, definitely tricky. But there have been some success stories using technologies like flow batteries so maybe not as tricky as it used to be. It's at least plausible... |
Small loads have it going for them. Perhaps it will work in Missouri too. |
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smallpoxgirl
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Mountain_Pumped-Storage_Plant
_________________
"So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS |
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HEADER_RACK
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 540
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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Curious on how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain compared to the energy released from the water coming down the mountain?
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steam_cannon
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cube
Fusion
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| allenwrench wrote: | http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165441.htm
Or should this town do it right and take themselves off grid to get a true pix of PO and wind mix? |
It makes no sense to be off grid unless you absolutely have to. Aside from requiring batteries, you'd also need a bunch of fancy electronics like a DC to AC converter. (convert DC voltage of battery to AC voltage for residential use) That's not cheap. |
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cube
Fusion
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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I have an idea.
Why not just get the power directly from the grid?
The advantage of this is obvious, you get a stable supply of electricity.
As for the windmills, just hook it up to the grid and sell electricity to the utility company at all times---> let them deal with the wild fluctuations of power produced from the windmills.
Is there a law against this or is this basically how the system works?
If yes then an augment can be said you're NOT relying on windmills you're just in the business of selling fluctuating electricity to the utility company.
anyone know how the system works? |
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allenwrench
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Apr 23, 2008
Posts: 893
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| cube wrote: | | allenwrench wrote: | http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165441.htm
Or should this town do it right and take themselves off grid to get a true pix of PO and wind mix? |
It makes no sense to be off grid unless you absolutely have to. Aside from requiring batteries, you'd also need a bunch of fancy electronics like a DC to AC converter. (convert DC voltage of battery to AC voltage for residential use) That's not cheap. |
To go off grid removes the crutch.
Lets see what solar and wind does on its own.
The water pumping idea is fine for those with hills, but flat regions will have a tough time storing power.
I hear people talking about wind and solar all the time, but to me they are supplemental power only and not UPS's.
I would like to see how a town does on them alone with no cushion...the truth will stand on its own one way or another.
If they are afraid to get off grid then keep data when they need grid and when they don't. What's the percentage that the wind and solar don't cut it? All important questions to know, |
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VMarcHart
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: May 26, 2008
Posts: 1140
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| cube wrote: | | Is there a law against this or is this basically how the system works? If yes then an augment can be said you're NOT relying on windmills you're just in the business of selling fluctuating electricity to the utility company. Anyone know how the system works? |
I know how the system works, it would be too complicated to explain here. Yes, you can set yourself up as a generator and sell (excess) energy into the grid. Hundreds of generators do that. It's not trivial, and heavily ruled by economics. |
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yesplease
Fission
Joined: Oct 03, 2006
Posts: 2482
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| Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| smallpoxgirl wrote: | | Chatanooga, TN had a solution that always seemed very reasonable to me. They pump water up a big hill during periods of low demand. Then when demand increases, the pump becomes a generator and they let the water come back down and basically generate hydroelectric. It seems like a dirt simple system that could easily be employed elsewhere. |
It is more or less. What's interesting is that a company in Germany demonstrated on a small scale given similar proportions to their current hydroelectric pumped storage that a 100% renewable grid could work. Any excess electricity via wind/solar is first used to store energy via hydro, then it could be used for creating hydrogen which can be used later, albeit at a fraction of the available energy. The advantage the US has over Germany IMO is that a greater portion of it's electricity production is via hydroelectric pumped storage, so we more or less have bigger batteries in that respect. With the same proportion of biogas we would have more stability or we could reduce the number of required biogas plants. Being a larger nation, we also have access to many different regions which can have different weather patterns. If the wind isn't blowing someplace, the sun may likely be shining someplace else, and alla that. Here's a news clip on the idea.
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vilemerchant
Heavy Crude
Joined: Jul 07, 2008
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| HEADER_RACK wrote: | | Curious on how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain compared to the energy released from the water coming down the mountain? |
It doesn't matter how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain, as it was 'waste' excess energy that wasn't need anyhow. Water stored high up the mountain basically acts like a battery to be used later, except it's not overly expensive and doesn't wear out after a few years. |
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Dezakin
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Feb 09, 2005
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Will it work? |
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| vilemerchant wrote: | | HEADER_RACK wrote: | | Curious on how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain compared to the energy released from the water coming down the mountain? |
It doesn't matter how much energy it takes to pump the water up the mountain, as it was 'waste' excess energy that wasn't need anyhow. Water stored high up the mountain basically acts like a battery to be used later, except it's not overly expensive and doesn't wear out after a few years. |
Pumped storage is 80-90% efficient IIRC. |
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