I will believe the Saudis don't see any upcoming problems with Ghawar when they cancel one of their projects due to low oil prices. If they continue to be full steam ahead with increasing their capacity then I think they are aware that Ghawar may not be as robust in 5 years time as they would like us to believe.
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:15 am Post subject: WMDs Found in Iraq
Finally, something that puts this war back into perspective. For so long, we’ve had the negative attributes of this war pounded into our heads. Suicide bombings, beheadings, Iraqis taking to the streets denouncing “the occupation,” and the list goes on. Upon seeing this movie, however, the real reasons for taking out Saddam Hussein resurfaced. Weapon of Mass Destruction: The Murderous Reign of Saddam Hussein is a refreshing alternative to the negative press the war has been receiving.
I was shocked to see that 1.3 million Iraqis were murdered at the hands of this despot, who did nothing more than squander the country’s incredible wealth on himself and his repugnant sons. Mass graves, gas bombings, torture chambers, these were all the norm in Iraq before the invasion. This being the case, it is clear that Iraqis are infinitely better off now that this man is no longer a threat to them.
Do yourself a favor: go to http://www.wmddvd.com/ and read more about the film. If anything, it will reinforce your views that something incredibly positive has occurred as a result of the invasion
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 243 Location: the Village
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:36 am Post subject: re:
Did you ever think about how the black cube tefillin that orthodox Jews wear during (some of their) prayer is kinda co-incidently linked to Islam via their black cube, the Ka'aba, at Mecca ?
( sorry for spelling errors there, I didn't look it up to be 100% accurate )
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:55 am Post subject: Re: WMDs Found in Iraq
aocasio wrote:
bombings, torture chambers, these were all the norm in Iraq before the invasion. This being the case, it is clear that Iraqis are infinitely better off now that this man is no longer a threat to them.
Do yourself a favor: go to http://www.wmddvd.com/ and read more about the film. If anything, it will reinforce your views that something incredibly positive has occurred as a result of the invasion
Ask the ordinary Iraqi on the street. They knew how to be safe in Saddam's regime. And could usually feed their family. They did suffer. Now everyone is suffering, because the society has largely fallen apart. Chaos is the norm. It's not better. And it may not get better. It may come apart.
The invasion was executed terribly, irrespective of whether it was right or not. Bush and the idiots around him must go down hard for it. They will.
Joined: Aug 13, 2004 Posts: 435 Location: Hiding from the All-Seeing Eye
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:27 am Post subject:
SH was obviously not a nice person, however that is not the point.
We went into Iraq because of the WMD excuse....period.
No WMD to date have been found even though Colin Powell said we knew exactly where they were. Of course we should have know that because we sold the man WMD's in the 80's (Anthrax comes to mind).
The people in the Bush administration conveniently seem to forget that little nugget of information.
Oh well too late now. Never mind the fact that we broke every rule in the Geneva Conventions either. We're the US of, by God, A and we can do anything we want to. That bullshit John Wayne attitude is going to come around and bite us in the ass. Mark my words.
The kicker is that Bush also said that the world is safer now. Uh-huh, sure it is. He's destabilized that entire region and created a magnet for terrorists groups.
Of course they see it as a positive. When you're the ex (probably still running the company) CEO of Halliburton and making a fortune at the same time you sent people in to die by the thousands, of course you're going to say it's a good thing. Can you say, conflict of interest?
In the meantime, you've got another member of your crew....James Baker.....defending the House of Saud against the family member's of the 911 victims lawsuit for Christ's sake. How in the righteous hell does that escape mainstream media coverage? Can you say, conflict of interest again?
Can a Bush supporter honestly tell me that his (Bush's) priorities and intentions are for the common good. You're either brainwashed, on Bush's payroll, or an incredibly good liar if you can tell me that with a straight face. _________________ "Your failure to be informed does not make me a wacko." - John Loeffler
In 1918 the British invaded the region and joined Basra Mosul and Bagdad, which was the start of the modern Iraq. After a discussion it was decided that Iraq would not be a colony but an independent state, modeled after their own. So they created a constitutional monarchy and declared Faysal king. This kingdom was short lived and in 1932 after an uprising in Mosul the king was forced to leave to Switzerland.
After a few coups and changes of leadership the Brits decided to have another go at it in 1941. They invaded the country again and appointed a new king, Faysal II. This kingdom had no more success than the first one and in 1958, after a few popular uprisings the monarchy was abandoned.
From the power vacuum the first dictator emerged: Quasim. He was executed after (yet) another uprising in 1963.
This was the start of the reign of the Ba'th party. Headed by Bakr at first and later by his right hand Saddam Hussein.
This is the story that the movie doesn't tell. Iraq is not a country and the Iraqi's are not one people. Like the former Yugoslavia it is a complex mixture of different ethnic groups and religions. You've got Shiites, Sunnis, Assyrians and Kurds living in one country, and they hate each other.
The only thing which can keep such a country from collapsing into civil war is a brutal regime like that of Saddam Hussain. You have to realize that much of the violence was aimed at keeping the different ethnic groups from killing each other (which doesn't make it right).
I don't mind that the US went into Iraq to get rid of Saddam. What I do mind is that they never looked at the history or demographics of Iraq. If they would have done that they would probably never have decided to go in at all. Instead they went in with the same arrogant and ignorant imperialistic attitude that characterised the Europeans in the past 300 years.
It has been tried two times before and it does not work. This time it will fail because of precisely the same reasons. In all probability the country will descent in civil war again, like Afghanistan now. And like last times the bodycount will be much higher than the 1.8 million people you mention.
The sanctions and the war have already claimed more than that. This is a utterly useless exercises. You can restore a democracy - like in post-war Germany -, but you cannot build an nation where there is none.
Of course the innocent civilians will be the victims (as always). It makes me sad.
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 1969 Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:34 pm Post subject:
Saddam Hussein is a Weapon of Mass Destruction. Just look at 1988 when he released Sarina on his own Kurdish population. And the US giving him them is not a valid excuse. If I give you a .50 caliber rifle with armor piercing rounds, and you decide to go shoot up the whitehouse, your actions are only your responsibility, not mine. Yes, if I had given you the weapon with previous knowledge that shooting up the whitehouse was your intention, I would be held liable for contributing to your actions, but if I have no knowledge of your intentions, and give you the weapon, the burden falls squarely upon the individual exercising in such an activity _________________ Here Lies the United States Of America.
Not only that, but we gave him the weapons he used on the Kurds. And while we expressed outrage at his murder of women and children, we continued to give him WMD. As long as he was Iran's enemy, he was our pal.
Saddam was a brutal dictator. No one is arguing that. But the world is full of brutal dictators. Saddam is only mediocre on the list. Kim Jong Il is worse, both in the people he's killed and in WMD. (He has nukes, and he has rockets that would let him hit the U.S.) Why aren't we invading North Korea? The genocide in Sudan was far worse than anything the Iraqis experienced, but we aren't rushing in there, either.
It's all about the oil. We're not the world's policemen, and we cannot be. If Iraq didn't have any oil, no one would give a rat's rear what Saddam did.
Joined: Aug 13, 2004 Posts: 435 Location: Hiding from the All-Seeing Eye
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:31 pm Post subject:
k_semler wrote:
Yes, if I had given you the weapon with previous knowledge that shooting up the whitehouse was your intention, I would be held liable for contributing to your actions, but if I have no knowledge of your intentions, and give you the weapon, the burden falls squarely upon the individual exercising in such an activity
SH was a WMD and we knew it back in the 80's but that didn't stop us from taking him out then. We knew full that SH could not be trusted and was a brutal dictator, however we sent him weapons in the hopes that he would crush Iran, who at the time, we had a beef with. Oliver North knew this. Hell, everyone in Reagan's administration knew this.........except for Reagan. Never tell the figure-hea........er I mean.......the President. Plausible denialiability.
The United States has been doing crap like this for decades with the, "we're just spreading democracy" excuse coming into play when we get in over our heads.
Bush has said over and over and over that the terrorists hate our freedom or are freedom haters. That's frigging ridiculous. If that was the case, then the Netherlands or Canada would be toast right now.
The real reason bin Laden hit us was because our involvement with Israel and the fact that we have our troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. You know why that is the case? Because that's what bin Laden said.
The sad part is that a majority of Americans believe Bush's bullshit. People still believe SH had a part in planning/paying/whatever in 9/11.
Another thing that I cannot believe is that this administration still links itself with true Republicans like Abraham Lincoln. That is laughable. Lincoln was perhaps our greatest president. Bush is so far off the map he's not even close to true Republican beliefs (small government, small spending). If things keep going the pace they are headed then Bush may be regarded as the U.S.'s greatest Emperor.
SH was a WMD. The problem is that we knew it along time ago and did nothing about it.
Leanan said it right. Why aren't we in North Korea if it's about taking out Kim Jong Il and the evil WMD that he is?
The American public needs to get their thumbs out of their asses and start asking questions like this. Maybe it will wake some people up and realize why we're over there in the first place. _________________ "Your failure to be informed does not make me a wacko." - John Loeffler
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject:
Hi aocasio, I see you work for the Republican Party. One thing to keep in mind: propaganda get's picked apart around this place. You're going to have to come up with something better than that.
Joined: Jul 21, 2004 Posts: 1319 Location: Suburban tar sands
Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: WMDs Found in Iraq
aocasio wrote:
Do yourself a favor: go to http://www.wmddvd.com/ and read more about the film. If anything, it will reinforce your views that something incredibly positive has occurred as a result of the invasion
You could make just as good a case for liberating quite a few countries, many of them close allies of the Bush regime. I think the 2003 invasion has more to do with oil than what Saddam did 15 years ago.
Hi aocasio, I see you work for the Republican Party. One thing to keep in mind: propaganda get's picked apart around this place. You're going to have to come up with something better than that.
Of particular interest is information that emerged
in last week's report about how doubts were handled
regarding a leading source on Saddam Hussein's
alleged mobile biological weapons labs — an Iraqi
scientist who defected to Germany, code named
"Curveball."
Porter Goss, who became CIA director last September,
has instructed officials to determine what happened
and why the details did not come to light earlier,
said his spokeswoman, Jennifer Millerwise.
"It was an unhappy surprise to the director that his
first understanding of this issue was when he first read"
the commission's report, Millerwise said Wednesday.
Senate Intelligence Chairman Pat Roberts, R-Kan.,
also acknowledged President Bush's intelligence
commission had details that did not emerge during
his committee's yearlong investigation into the Iraq
assessments, released last July.
If Bush's intelligence commission learned "something
obvious," Roberts said, "we want to make sure the
intelligence community does fill in those gaps so we
have a clear picture."
Other lawmakers are angrier.
"As far as I am concerned, the CIA threw us
a curve ball," said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., also a
member of the Intelligence Committee.
Tenet and his top deputy have both released statements
emphatically denying that they received such warnings.
Tenet called it "deeply disturbing" that the information
didn't get to him.
Levin wants Tenet to testify under oath.
"I don't think the intelligence committee was given some
of that detail on Curveball, but I think it should have been,"
Levin said.
"Tenet said he doesn't remember," Levin said.
"Hey, these are life and death decisions.
This is what we tell the world. That's not good enough. ...
Where is the responsibility?"
Source: Associated Press via USA Today
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