[Ibon]

This all happened within 24 hours. My question. Which day was he a hypocrite? When he shot the duck or saw god in the sunset?

Life today is hardly so poetic...

The reason something like pantheism makes sense is that it helps resolve the contradiction of being a hunter. If everything is sacred, then you pay your respects to the animal you had to kill to keep you alive. The religiosity of the pantheism is in some respect an empathic or guilt response, and a healthy thing, IMHO. Think, saying grace before a meal. The problem is that today we take everything for granted, ala factory farming and microwavable foods. Everything is commodified. Animals are just an inanimate resource that is conjured into existence via the resource extraction at the base of the pyramid, the natural gas fertilizers, the mined phosphorous, etc... and then consumed in a Big Mac casually as, if anything, an inconvenience in the midst of a busy day at the cubicle.

So that's a far cry from the portrait you're painting. People today see God in Lady Gaga's meat-dress.

Great post. I agree fully with everything you wrote. Millions have been ecologically derailed to the point where they see God in Lady Gaga's meat dress as you say. But even these most derailed and lost of humans are capable of compassion and can suffer. Are they deserving of a priority over other life forms?

[Ibon]

Today I steward 400 acres of wilderness bordering a huge national park.

Whoopty Foul language deleted. . You're some rich guy. I would have put you on ignore years ago if you weren't a moderator. You're so full of yourself I can't stand it.

Plus you hate Homo sapiens.

To my species as a whole I am full of disdain.

Ad hom deleted.

Unlike Montequest I wont go where you are trying to lead me!

[Keith_McClary]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

What do you trust?

You seem to divide things into tinhat and non-tinhat, the latter being conventional wisdom, "everybody-knows", MSM stuff based on embedded reporters parroting unnamed officials. That's what you seem to trust.

[Sixstrings]

Like "Iran cable cut"?

Well, more like with economic news. Peak Oil is even starting to percolate up to Zerohedge.. he's posted a couple times about the "formerly tin foil peak oil theory." And you can look back into the archives of this very forum to see people who predicted the housing collapse, some called that tinfoil but it came true.

Hard to think of specifics.. oh, one world currency is a classic one. That's always been trashed as new world order conspiracy wingnut "tinfoil." Well, just a few days ago Tim Ghetiner stunned the currency markets by publicly backing the Chinese plan to move away from the dollar and towards a basket of currencies (what do they call it, special drawing rights). So yeah, that's a bit of tin that ain't so tin anymore.. the Chinese are calling for it, the Russians too, and now even the Obama Administration.

And we all know a new currency has to happen anyway since these debts cannot be paid off. We'll get to the point where new debt no longer creates new money (which I thought we already passed but haven't read anything on that lately).

We haven't been exercising that choice. We've been shopping at Wal-Mart, because we care about price above all else.

Not everyone shops at Walmart, Mos. Some have made the conscious decision NOT to, as an act of protest and / or just because they hate that store so much. For example, I stopped getting my vegetables there.. I got to a farmer's market instead. I've also stopped buying meat there, because I don't trust them anymore -- got some spoiled chicken once, I think they let crap sit out too long while stocking. So thank goodness I have a CHOICE, and I don't have to shop there by force of government mandate. If Walmart pisses me off anymore I'll stop going altogether.

Now you can argue some businesses are so large we don't have much choice, but usually there is still some CHOICE whether to do business or seek employment with a particular corp. But when government does something, that's the LAW and it's mandatory -- laws don't generally have provisions to choose whether to comply or not.

Take Healthcare reform.. folks don't have a choice on that now, they are REQUIRED by force of law to select a plan from the approved list of private health insurers. That's why it's getting challenged in so many courts, because it's the first time government has mandated we do business with a group of private companies.

We're talking a philosophical point here, but do you at least understand what I'm saying? As bad as the private sector can be, some are more wary of government because with government you don't have a choice in the matter.

[Pretorian]

This moral dilemma can be described by an individual equally helpless to resolve it. Myself for example. I will go to heroic levels to help friends and loved ones.

There is no dilemma there. Your monkey-sphere cannot ruin the planet no matter how hard they try, or how big it is. But, other people,yes.

[Ibon]

a basket of currencies (what do they call it, special drawing rights). So yeah, that's a bit of tin that ain't so tin anymore.. the Chinese are calling for it, the Russians too, and now even the Obama Administration.

I predict we will see this in our life times. I remember when the Euro was created, first as a trade only currency, not as a paper money, and then eventually it got integrated. There is a clear step by step way this can be eased into the public's acceptance. This happened in heavily nationalistic Europe. The rationalization to move in this direction are too compelling for central banks, governments and corporations. The powers that be are in alliance with each other more than the citizenry of the countries they represent. That is a clear foundation of understanding everybody has to grasp to accurately forecast geopolitics and geo economic trends going forward.

[Ibon]

This moral dilemma can be described by an individual equally helpless to resolve it. Myself for example. I will go to heroic levels to help friends and loved ones.

There is no dilemma there. Your monkey-sphere cannot ruin the planet no matter how hard they try, or how big it is. But, other people,yes.

Yes but we are all complicit to living in this paradox. Everybody's poop stinks although there are degrees of harm which is what you are referring to I guess. The financial success of what I am doing here is in no small part dependent on eco tourists being able to get in airplanes and come here.
I do not pretend to be what I am not. I take ownership of the hypocrisy. You will never hear me say that the reforestation I am doing here is offsetting the carbon consumed by tourists coming here. That for me is a bunch of feel good bullshit.

My nose is finely tuned to hypocrisy.

[mos6507]

even these most derailed and lost of humans are capable of compassion and can suffer. Are they deserving of a priority over other life forms?

I don't bitch about culture in order to dehumanize people. It's basically a "repent, sinners" message, to quote Revi. Not that I'm delivering the message to the people who need to hear it, which is why I've put so much importance on my silly videos.

[mos6507]

How can we effectively communicate with "regular folks"?

I'd say there's a vehicle that's been pretty effective of late.





The problem is, the second people leave the theaters, they just go back to their old auto-pilot patterns. People are very good at compartmentalizing. All my feeble preps don't amount to much unplugging from the system. So I compartmentalize as much as anybody else. I am just more reflexively aware of my compartmentalization.

[Ibon]

even these most derailed and lost of humans are capable of compassion and can suffer. Are they deserving of a priority over other life forms?

I don't bitch about culture in order to dehumanize people. It's basically a "repent, sinners" message, to quote Revi. Not that I'm delivering the message to the people who need to hear it, which is why I've put so much importance on my silly videos.

I understand that. Sometimes though we can peg people into categories as if they are singular in their attributes. We are so complex in how we can contain in the same individual wisdom, folly, noble traits and primitive ones as well.

This whole topic doesn't ever resolve itself truly until consequences transcend the hypocrisy, contradictions and even the paradox.

I am not one who is hopeful for education and knowledge to transform because the pillars that support our ability to gain knowledge and educate are built on a structure that has been allowed to sustain 7 billion humans.

Morals, ethics, knowledge, all those human attributes we hold in the highest esteem are undermined when the vessel that holds them all is not seaworthy due to our excessive population and consumption.

We can't fix this ourselves. We need external events. It really is just that simple.

[Ibon]

The problem is, the second people leave the theaters, they just go back to their old auto-pilot patterns.

What they go back to is the physical infrastructure that is inherently unsustainable. People compartmentalize yes but in the end the mental games we play are secondary to the physical infrastructure that supports us. This I have come to believe more and more. We are ultimately loyal to the structure that supports us physically even if it is flawed and unsustainable.

One can then say.....just change the physical infrastructure and we can transcend. Not with 7 billion you cant.

Our loyalties are not in the movie theatre but in the theatre of reality. Less about mental constructs and more about the nuts and bolts that keep us going.

[Pretorian]

This moral dilemma can be described by an individual equally helpless to resolve it. Myself for example. I will go to heroic levels to help friends and loved ones.

There is no dilemma there. Your monkey-sphere cannot ruin the planet no matter how hard they try, or how big it is. But, other people,yes.

Yes but we are all complicit to living in this paradox. Everybody's poop stinks although there are degrees of harm which is what you are referring to I guess. The financial success of what I am doing here is in no small part dependent on eco tourists being able to get in airplanes and come here.
I do not pretend to be what I am not. I take ownership of the hypocrisy. You will never hear me say that the reforestation I am doing here is offsetting the carbon consumed by tourists coming here. That for me is a bunch of feel good bullshit.

My nose is finely tuned to hypocrisy.

Those are different things. Of course, everyone is complicit here, but there is no hypocrisy in rooting for your own monkey-sphere . If you were a cop and your son committed a murder would you be a hypocrite for covering it up? What if it would be your friend or second cousin?

[Cog]

Why would I want to trust something Mos would trust?

What do you trust?

You seem to divide things into tinhat and non-tinhat, the latter being conventional wisdom, "everybody-knows", MSM stuff based on embedded reporters parroting unnamed officials. That's what you seem to trust.

You obviously don't know my reading habits but I do know tinfoil when I see it. I see a great deal of it on this board which is why I read TOD when I want energy analysis without all the high noise to signal ratio that you have here.

The main reason I visit this place is just to observe the tinfoil freaks in action. Best free entertainment on the net. The high contrast between "The world is ending tomorrow, we are all going to die ", to the happy motoring world of Xenophobe and OF2 is really special. Not even to mention the "lets hate on America " and the "America love it or leave it" battles.

And people wonder why I don't trust anyone here for accurate information.

[mos6507]

And people wonder why I don't trust anyone here for accurate information.

TOD is a better source of information. I'll grant you that. Although even that is not without its biases. It's got a long record of extrapolating oil production charts that don't seem to match up much better than CERA.

[EXSLOPER]

Who do I trust? Unlike a lot of the posters here I like to keep it simple to avoid confusing myself.
I trust a pretty small group of people who have earned it... all others fall into one of two catagories - "Jury still out" and "have proven themselves untrustworthy". The second group is huge and the third is pretty big.

In line with keeping my thoughts simple I focus on making sure that the world doesn't have to take care of my family and I and don't spend a lot of time wringing my hands over situations where I have no ability to influence the outcome. I'm not out to save the world.

[Plantagenet]

Trust has to begin with trusting yourself and your own judgement in the personal, social, political and financial realms. Once you trust your own judgement, then you can make your own appraisals of people and situations and have the confidence to trust your intuition and go with your own decisions.

If you start out looking for someone else's judgement to trust, there is a good chance it won't work out for you.

[rangerone314]

There's only 3 people that I trust: me, myself, and I.

And here's a question: what "system" (and the world IS run by systems) do you trust to successfully confront the various problems such as peak oil, overpopulation, environmental degradation, and climate change?

American corporatocracy, Russian thugocracy, Chinese hybrid autocracy-semifreemarketistm, Eurosocialism, Arab monarchism?

How much do you trust that any of these systems can react to successfully meet the challenges?

How many of these systems do you think can be toppled in time to be replaced by a system that COULD meet the challenges? (A big IF even if they were toppled, what follows might be worse)

Societies collapse because they are stable enough to prevent people who see the problems far enough away to do something about them now, from doing something about them now, and will suddenly collapse when things are so far along that no action by the society will forestall collapse.