[americandream]

So AD, have a nice break?

First, there is no collective, besides the collective farm we are resident in. The farm is owned by it's owners, not by the animals and there ain't going to be no Orwellian revolution any time soon.

Second, was that you goiung on about Gulags for people who get caught with drugs? Those who resist slavery on the collective farm?

Now after a few weeks holiday you want to expouse the diginity of personal liberty? Where did you go? Maybe learned something?

When analysing the likely economic trends that confront us, one has to learn to remove oneself from what is the normative and instead look at the objective. Whether we view ourselves as units of the individual or as an interdependent group of animals, the fact remains that businesses are driven by the profit ambitions of their individual owners who invariably will never factor in the consequences of their commercial actions beyond their own lifetimes (to any meaningful degree). So to the extent that a system is bazed around the dynamics of individual profit, and in an environment where there is an unremitting search for growing profits, the effects upon the collective by these atomised individuals can be in fact viewed as necessary outcome. Given the private economy, this law of resource usage MUST apply and to the extent that a green but private econmy remains dependent on increasing annual profits to the capitalist (which it logically must), the resulting resourcing and environmental issues will still arise to bedevil the community....UNLESS we are able to do a few things:

1 Find an unquenchable source of resourcing...some sort of alchemic commodoties machine or fleets of star freighters..yes...hmmmm:
2 Render the pollution cycle which is growing by the day a closed loop....PROFITABLY and not with hidden subsidies as is the case with the existing system which notwithstanding, is a mere minnow with massive leakage into the general environment in ways we have barely begun to consider.
3 Block the natural tendency of the system to devolve into mass speculation which again is a pipe dream give the seduction of those in power by the financial drivers of accumulation.

The choice will eventually be one of a slide into barbarism or some form of communal living with strict limits to family sizes and JIT consumerism.

[peeker01]

AD, I'd love to discuss this with you, but I can't really make out a word of what you are
taking about. Try turning up the mike gain!

[americandream]

AD, I'd love to discuss this with you, but I can't really make out a word of what you are
taking about. Try turning up the mike gain!

This is what Marx termed, material dialecticism and why he termed social economy, a science. In a nutshell, the system, viewed objectively, is what it is (itself a function of the feudalism that preceded it), with results being what they are, given its core logic. In other words, it WILL BE and it's outcomes will determine the synthesis. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Timeless drivers in the socio-material functions of a civil order.

Which acounts for why he cautioned against seeking to contrive a socialised order in a world with incomplete globalisation where the "barbarians" have yet to embrace what constitutes "civilisation" (as that is termed by growing and internationalised bourgeoisie class).

[Keith_McClary]

As the cornies become more desperate, they will fixate onto any outlier that supports their vision ....

We should delve back into the predictions of cornie outliers of a few years ago, such as IEA, EIA, BP, EXXON, CERA, USGS, ARAMCO, ...

[timmac]

AD, I'd love to discuss this with you, but I can't really make out a word of what you are
taking about. Try turning up the mike gain!

AmericanDream beats to a different drum Peeker01, he hates anything American and Capitalist, he thinks Stalin was the greatest leader in the world since monkeys started producing human babies.

[americandream]

AD, I'd love to discuss this with you, but I can't really make out a word of what you are
taking about. Try turning up the mike gain!

AmericanDream beats to a different drum Peeker01, he hates anything American and Capitalist, he thinks Stalin was the greatest leader in the world since monkeys started producing human babies.

Do you know the difference between an objective and normative asessment of issues?

[timmac]

Do you know the difference between an objective and normative asessment of issues?

How does this apply to my post to peeker01..

Or are you trying to sound educated..

The term normative assessment refers to the process of comparing one test-taker to his or her peers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm-referenced_test

[americandream]

Do you know the difference between an objective and normative asessment of issues?

How does this apply to my post to peeker01..

Or are you trying to sound educated..

The term normative assessment refers to the process of comparing one test-taker to his or her peers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm-referenced_test

No. Simply wanting to know whether you bothered to read my rather dispassionate posts with the list of qualifiers, which do bear some consideration.

Along with some understanding of where you, as a labourer and American stand, in a world of non-patriotic globalising owners of capital, including Americans, Saudis, Chinese, British, New Zealand, Indians, etc, etc (some of whom own the media of many nations yet plough no nationalisms in their financial affairs, such as Murdoch the Australian with his Chinese "communist" party wife) and owner of Fox.) Obviously something that has not crossed your mind as you bask in your Fox made Americaness.

Edit:

Wikipedia again:

See also: Norm (philosophy).

In philosophy, normative statements affirm how things should or ought to be, how to value them, which things are good or bad, which actions are right or wrong. Normative is usually contrasted with positive (i.e. descriptive, explanatory, or constative) when describing types of theories, beliefs, or propositions. Positive statements are factual statements that attempt to describe reality....

[timmac]

Not even one word in regard to Ruppert's failed predictions on his website.....

http://www.collapsenet.com/

I am not sure if his prediction was a complete failure, if the Gobberment did not sink us into another 2.5 trillion dollars of debt we would be looking at some serious problems going on right now, but I guess we got another 18 months to find out what will happen when the 2.5 trillion runs out..

America is now going to be 17 trillion in the hole by end of 2012, how are we going to keep this Gobberment going with that if we can't do it now..

[Sixstrings]

Seems alot of these people have failed in the real world, and want to see the rules re-written.

How is Ruppert a failure? Peeker, have you ever been in an award-winning documentary? He was more than just in it, the whole film was JUST HIM, all about him and his ideas. And the movie was a big success, high reviews across the board.

Ruppert is famous, are you famous? He's been featured on History Channel, have you?

I dunno, he seems successful to me. Maybe he got a raw deal on that movie, the whole movie was just him he should have got a fair share of the profits.

[timmac]

Along with some understanding of where you, as a labourer and American stand, in a world of non-patriotic globalising owners of capital, including Americans, Saudis, Chinese, British, New Zealand, Indians, etc, etc (some of whom own the media of many nations yet plough no nationalisms in their financial affairs, such as Murdoch the Australian with his Chinese "communist" party wife) and owner of Fox.) Obviously something that has not crossed your mind as you bask in your Fox made Americaness.

Oh yes I do know where I stand and the normative assessment of today's issues are going just as planed, here's where I beat to a different drum, what is happening today is what was written in a book that you need to spend sometime into its words and get away from Marx and Darwin and you will understand where this is all heading..

[americandream]

Along with some understanding of where you, as a labourer and American stand, in a world of non-patriotic globalising owners of capital, including Americans, Saudis, Chinese, British, New Zealand, Indians, etc, etc (some of whom own the media of many nations yet plough no nationalisms in their financial affairs, such as Murdoch the Australian with his Chinese "communist" party wife) and owner of Fox.) Obviously something that has not crossed your mind as you bask in your Fox made Americaness.

Oh yes I do know where I stand and the normative assessment of today's issues are going just as planed, here's where I beat to a different drum, what is happening today is what was written in a book that you need to spend sometime into its words and get away from Marx and Darwin and you will understand where this is all heading..

I haven't a clue what you are trying to communicate but the point being made is that capitalism will evolve into its natural transition UNLESS the points I listed are satisfied (as did Feudalism which is how you ended up being born in America and not in the alleys of rat infested feudal Europe). Its as simple as that. Its not some exciteable defence of a system or a hysterical call to doom.

[Sixstrings]

In this ad (click the link) a false Tom Brown Jr. talks about this great web site, when in fact nobody heard of him in the last... hm... 20 years or so.
His school has been dismantled for sure, i can post some photographs if needed.

Could you give more detail why you're so against the survival school?

Thing is, we're not communists, people need to make money and eat. The line for me is whether it's all SCHTICK or if the person is sincere and has honest conviction. Ruppert seems very sincere. He's always been a doomer, always will be, whether he gets a dime out of it or not.

I don't think there will ever be a Bill Shatner SNL moment where Ruppert tells everyone to get a life like the LATOC guy did.

I don't know, what's not to like about Ruppert? He's calm, emphatically for non-violence, no crazy tinfoil, no racist or angry things in what he says, his message just leads people to prep and network with each other and garden and stuff -- what's so bad about that?

[americandream]

Ruppert means well but alas, I don't think he quite has a grasp on how resilient the incomplete globalising project of capitalism is.

[Keith_McClary]

here's where I beat to a different drum, what is happening today is what was written in a book that you need to spend sometime into its words

The mods deleted my post when I mentioned your book thumping.

[Novus]

Ruppert was pretty spot on if you ask me. The US came within a hair's breath of default just Yesterday. That is not something that happens everyday. China down graded US debt as a result and since they are the only ones buying it IS a big deal. It sent gold to another new record. The US debt crisis isn't over and anyone with a working brain knows it. The appropriations committee has to figure out what programs to actually cut by Oct 1 or the US could be in for another default. This problem will never go away as it will be harder and harder to paper over the lost trillions. The Euro is on the rocks as well because Greece, Italy, and Ireland are effectively already in default. The beggar thy neighbor approach will not save the Euro from its' fate. The MSM is acting like this is the new normal but it is not. This is what global collapse looks like. Countries teetering on the brink and never recovering their stability.

[highlander]

No, there was never any real danger of default. Obama always had his out, he just didn't want to use it.
China is not the only buyer of US debt. the FED ends up with the majority. That is what quantitative easing is.
You are right about the fact the crisis is not over, and your assessment of what worldwide economic collapse looks like.

[Timo]

This is my take on things, not that anyone is particularly interested. Clearly, we are in the midst of a global economic restructuring based entirely on the failed premise that debt equals prosperity and can continue forever. Prosperity has been contorted into a default right by most of the planet, hence we have all of the unsustainable social safety net programs like social security, Medicare, food stamps, and so on. The US is not the only country with these types of programs, btw. These programs were created to fill a specific need at a specific time in each nation's history. Those needs still exist for a great number of people, but their existence has created a dependency on them instead of being the safety net that they were inteded to be. For a great number of people, these programs are necessary to support their lives and families. But, as we have all witnessed over the past month of debt default debate, there is not sustainability mechanism built into these programs that allow them to continue in the manner in which we have all become accustomed and have come to expect. Something has to change. This is the point where the collapse v. decline argument comes in. We have a choice in which path we take. On one side of the debate, to be more specific, the Tea Partiers want to abolish our entire republic system of government by eliminating the ability of every future generation to decide for themselves what their needs and problems are, and how best to address them. They want to create their version of the future right now where no one has anything that they depend on, all in an attempt to claim that they balanced the budget. That method is to not only allow collapse, but to create it, and in fact, insist on it. The consequences of this action would/will be catastrophic to both the survival of this country as a republic, and to tens of millions of its citizens. The other path is to minimize the transition into our collective new reality by recognizing that the current system is broken (done), agreeing on a method of getting from here to there (in process), and a sensible timeframe to allow a minimally disruptive transition (tbd). This will not be easy and there will be unprecedented political turmoil as we head down this road, but this road is reality, and there are no other roads to take. The s*it has hit the fan and we all have to pay the piper. Now, for me personally, i'm already near the bottom of the financial totem pole, so in that sense, i don't stand to lose a heck of a lot of money. I reckon a lot of you out there are in the same position. Those who stand to lose a lot are those who currently have a lot. The tired old cliche, "He who dies with the most toys wins" will become "He who has the most toys will fall the farthest." I've been crawling through this life for 45 years, and if i fall, it's just a matter of inches. Those who own and live in skyscrapers will fall along, long ways. The new paradigm of "sustainability" is even on its way out because there quickly won't be anything left to sustain. The new paradigm will become "resiliency." Those wo can adapt the fastest to the new reality will win by simply surviving. Those who can't adapt, or won't, they will collapse.

[Anvil]

Sometimes Mikes right and sometimes he is wrong. What matters is his basic message is right. It takes some real guts to stand up and say somethings every one hates. So in the i have to admire the guy. But listen to him with a grain of salt.

Whats the difference between fast crash and slow crash doomers in the end were all just as f**ked in the end?
The only difference is i can guess at is psychology.

[AgentR11]

@Timo...
I think I've talked about this before; but the hollywood image of the stockbroker blowing his brains out after the stock market crash in '29 is mostly just hollywood selling to the masses based on reactionary "get even with em" mindsets.

I just don't buy it, none seem at all frail, many have substantial rural or protected residences, as well as places to stay internationally and offshore. There won't be any, "woe as me, my life isn't worth living..." from these guys. They are largely prepared, ready, tenacious and have every intention of being king of the hill, even if the all that's left of the hill is a stinky pile of dung.