[vision-master]

Let's swim to the Moon

[Sixstrings]

America isn't uniformly like any particular European country, and I'm not quite sure that sentence evokes anything other than a generic, placid image of a middle class, salaried professional, having a pleasant lunch, at a sophisticated sidewalk cafe, in a spiffy part of Paris.

Would that be so bad? A large, fat and happy middle class having pleasant lunches in pleasant cafes in spiffy towns that aren't a frickin' EYESORE? I know we're all peak oilers, but let's not support politics that lead to Third World living before it's necessary.

About the GDP.. our closest "peer" would be the Eurozone as a whole:



When I look at that pie chart, I find it hard to understand how we supposedly lack money in this country and have to start prepping for jeepnies / beans and rice served on a banana leaf, and de-regulate everything and stop taxing rich plus dismantle the little social safety net we have. Agent, I think it's more like our ratio of rich to middle class has gotten of whack:



In terms of the Gini index of wealth inequality, then yes the third world is our peer. Look at the red countries.. South America, China, the African bush and us.

You make good points about structural differences, But Canada is right in line with Europe in terms of equality yet Canada looks like the US doesn't it? They have the same stores and crap we do, highways and happy motoring too.

Nice post by the way, and yes Europe looks different as far as smaller cities, businesses, villages and more compact -- but those aren't the reasons for the income inequality in the US. The inequality we have here is by choice, this what happens when you vote for guys like Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama.

[vision-master]

Paris is suppose to be one of the best places to live in the World - bring moola.

[Ibon]

But with all the problems we have, the US is still the largest and richest economy in the world. You're arguing in favor of a third world America, but that doesn't mean there isn't another option. Our peers are Canada, France, Germany, and Britain -- not Ecuador and Timbuktu.

I am not arguing any longer in favor of any particular outcome. Those days my friend are long gone that I took a position that reflects what I personally would want. I am in fact forecasting reality as it seems to be unfolding. I have no pet outcome.

America has had since over 100 years a large number of disenfranchised citizens living in "3rd" world status. The fact that now the disenfranchised include former citizens of the mainstream only opens all our eyes to inequities that are present in America and that by the way are and have been present in every civilization. America is in no way exceptional either in its assets or its deficits in this regard.

For a few short decades after WWII it did indeed appear as if the affluent middle class American lifestyle was making America the first civilization that succeeded in allowing a broad sector of its population to enjoy a comparative high level of affluence. It has only taken us 40 years or so to fall back now to a much more representative socio economic division of a relatively small elite corrupted by power and therefore able to subjugate
the masses into complacent 2nd class citizenry.

My suggestions in my previous post for example around transportation were given as an example how we could mobilize our citizenry of less economic means into being able free themselves of owning a personal vehicle which in the end would increase their economic independence.

There is nothing wrong with that. I lived 10 years in Europe and never owned a car. And never missed it. And I have been in my share of Jeepnies, colectivos, etc. to see this as a viable solution to moving people around in the asset inertia of suburbia that we cant afford to reengineer into some other living arrangement.

Sixstrings, perhaps you are the one who holds on to a concept of America that may no longer be possible. I don't really know. But I don't advocate 3rd world living standards for the USA.......it is happening on its own quite efficiently with out my humble opinions.

[SeaGypsy]

How long will the fantasy prevail over real need?

6'strings, don't you get it that your country allowed the greatest scam ever by deregulating banking whilst hyper-regulating aspects of life likely to assist independence/ downsizing/ community sustainability? It's actually in the category of evil. This and it's suckers believing otherwise leading to continuation of inexorable slide into something worse than 3rd world.

You are so turned off by something which is in fact the only option to absolute degeneration. This is why both sides of your joke try to sell the return to growth story endlessly, they want/ need you all to be dependent on the b/s system.

Fact is there will never be a return to pre-peak oil growth in the USA. There will be a necessity for people to feed themselves and do things in a much more '3rd world' style. Wishfull thinking will not make it otherwise.

You seem horrified by a picture of a kid playing in a drain. Amazing how much you read into this picture. I have seen far far worse than this in Australia, with our mega welfare and universal medicare.

It is not realistic to pick out an image as some declaration of what life is like in the 3rd world. There is something much worse than this, it's called a failed state. By not permitting/ encouraging 3rd world style adaptations the US becomes increasingly more likely to end up as a failed state.

You are still thinking about ending up living like Norwegians or Australians or whatever 1st world comparison you wish to make. You forget that you are living in the country first affected and most affected by peak oil. No magic trick will undo this situation, the best they can do is debt fueled spending until the jig is finally up.
Kicking the can down the road.

[Oneaboveall]

...Sixstrings, perhaps you are the one who holds on to a concept of America that may no longer be possible. I don't really know. But I don't advocate 3rd world living standards for the USA.......it is happening on its own quite efficiently with out my humble opinions.

Hmmm...

I can't help but notice (again) the implication that the middle-class is unsustainable, but the plutocracy sucking up all the money is not.

[AgentR11]

You seem horrified by a picture of a kid playing in a drain. Amazing how much you read into this picture. I have seen far far worse than this in Australia, with our mega welfare and universal medicare.

I didn't want to say it, but dang you noticed this too. By no means did I grow up poor, but I'll guarantee you one thing, from age five till about age eight, I had one thought on my little boy brain.... MUST CATCH TADPOLLS. And despite specific parental prohibitions, I did exactly that, and I couldn't have looked anything other than like that kid on the pipe.

[The Practician]

...Sixstrings, perhaps you are the one who holds on to a concept of America that may no longer be possible. I don't really know. But I don't advocate 3rd world living standards for the USA.......it is happening on its own quite efficiently with out my humble opinions.

Hmmm...

I can't help but notice (again) the implication that the middle-class is unsustainable, but the plutocracy sucking up all the money is not.

Unfortunately, If you are a believer in resource limits, you eventually have to admit to yourself that this is in fact somewhat true. one billionaire does not use anywhere near as much in the way of REAL resources as one thousand "middle class" people worth 100,000 a piece. A world with a small ruling elite with access to fantastic wealth, supported by masses of poor with limited access to energy and resources, would be infinitely more sustainable than a world where 7 billion people live like middle class North Americans.

This is not to say I think such a direction is a good one to head in, but the more agreeable alternatives, to my mind, are looking depressingly more unlikely with each passing day.

[vision-master]

6, you live in Florida, get yourself a scooter. I can cruise around town for a good three hours and only burn about 1/2 gal of fuel. Park that car unless you really need it.

[Sixstrings]

6, you live in Florida, get yourself a scooter. I can cruise around town for a good three hours and only burn about 1/2 gal of fuel. Park that car unless you really need it.

I've actually been thinking about that, just for the fun of it. I'm nervous about morotcycles, knew a couple people who died in bad wrecks. Scooters seem safer but.. you're still sharing the road with Hummers and 90 year old half blind and feeble drivers and Brit tourists who aren't used to the right side of a road..

[Ibon]

In India a few years ago I had an insight that their modernization is just adding another layer onto an already multi-layered society made up of a sweep of socio-economic categories from the very wealthy to the very very poor. So the emerging affluence in India co exists side by side with the social stratification that has existed for hundreds of years.

In America for over 100 years we have had back country Appalachia, Mississippi and Louisiana, Indigenous reservations, inner city ghettos. A multi layered social stratification that was out of sight and out of mind and not reflected in the main stream media. The world and the majority of US citizens did not include these disenfranchised in their "conceptualization" of America.

What is happening in America is what has happened in India. Only reversed. We are adding a layer on to the diverse social stratification.

That this social stratification is including former members of the mainstream; white former middle class Americans, is perhaps somewhat jarring for those that never included this demographic.

That is requiring some re calibration of what America is today.

This re calibration is happening on a global scale as reflected in the financial markets as well.

There is no country to replace America's former hegemony. The world is without a credible role model as all countries are now in un chartered waters.

Unstable times are inherently anxiety prone and volatile but also the catalysts for new beginnings.