[timmac]

When he took office he managed to pull us back from the big sucking sound even though we were rapidly spinning down the drain. It was nothing short of a miracle.

His idea of a pull back was trillions more in debt, did you forget that part, that is one of the reasons we are here, he piled on more debt faster than any other Prez..

[AgentR11]

Too bad it's over. When the rest of the world takes it all back, and we only get a small percentage of the resources we once considered our own, our people will starve. Well at least the poor ones, the ones that were fooled into thinking Middle Class was a real thing. The ones that aspired to a dream of wealth in a rigged game that they lost just by playing.

You must not have read the second verse of American capitalism.
Take all you can.
GIVE NOTHING BACK.

There will be no "taking back" for the rest. Its gone. Burned. The paper they hold only has value and effectiveness as long as it is held and not spent. Anything they buy here subjects them to huge liability, anything they buy overseas with it simply reduces the value of what they have to hold. Producers are at max output, while the economy is still in dead air. We change the rules of the game faster than they can change held reserves.

Why in the world do you think Chinese bank PR folks would be ranting in the public presses? For fun? Its desperation. They are hovering moments above the annihilation of a decade worth of export earnings, and no way out. That's serious s...

Then the flip side comes worldwide, after this brief crisis, as it has come to a lot of the Mideast already; America used to provide the excess in the grain market that prevented prices from rising out of control; now we hold a simple red button... it doesn't launch nukes, it does worse. It turns grain into alcohol to be burned in vehicles. Mideast countries are not reducing their populations, Asia is not reducing its population, the Americas are not reducing their populations; but we most certain are reducing the amount of grain available to feed all those people. Should someone come along and attempt to fill the gap, we remove the thumb from the red button, and they are instantly bankrupted.

If you thought American greed had no limits when we took 25%... you ain't seen nothing yet.

[mattduke]

You get paid proportionate to what you produce, by definition.

Hmmmmmmm. I would suggest that you get rendered unemployed/unemployable proportionate to what someone else can produce.

You got any other suggestions for me?

[americandream]

His idea of a pull back was trillions more in debt, did you forget that part, that is one of the reasons we are here, he piled on more debt faster than any other Prez..

Hardly surprising as Bush was dozing on his watch whilst the housing market was taking flight on crap shoot derivatives aided by Greenspans loosening of debt. If you only had a notion of the sort of shonky securitisation that underpins much of US property title, all of which rose up due to the deregulation of regulatory mechanisms for keeping an eye on shoddy assetisation, you'ld be shitting your pants.

I'm just surprised that Obama willingly entered the job as he did knowing what he MUST have as an academic lawyer. I said so then, and I say it again. Obama must have believed he could make a difference, instead, he is the fall guy for the market deregulation snakes.

[AgentR11]

I'm just surprised that Obama willingly entered the job as he did knowing what he MUST have as an academic lawyer. I said so then, and I say it again. Obama must have believed he could make a difference, instead, he is the fall guy for the market deregulation snakes.

Sometimes its ok to be the fall guy if you can make a bunch of your friends wealthy, and not get yourself [in trouble] in the process. Seems like he's doing a pretty good job at it so far.

[Cid_Yama]

americandream, you have a very bizzare rose-tinted view of the US. Especially for one who does not live here.

American rose in the 19th century because of ever expanding farmland served by grain silos and railroads that allowed the US to undercut grain prices in Europe. It was nothing more than the fact that we had an entire new continent to exploit that put us in the running.

We didn't trash the Soviets, it was a high stakes gamble involving a reverse Cuban Missile Crisis (yes we did to them what they tried to do to us), that could have just as easily resulted is a glowing lifeless planet in the early 80's. It is just this American Bravado, and reckless refusal to take an honest objective assessment of themselves that brought us to this impasse.

They can now no longer respond appropriately because they are living in a John Wayne fantasy world, where the most reckless cowboy wins against impossible odds. It doesn't happen that way in the real world.

[americandream]

You got any other suggestions for me?

Join the capitalist class, take you medicine maganimously or arm yourself with knowledge. Apart form that, there is nothing you can do as this show has another 5 decades, at least, to run. The knowledge ar least, should motivate you to try and avoid the large scale immiseration that is headed the way of working folk worldwide.You sure as aint gonna be motivating an army of fervent idealists anytime in your lifetime, with it.

[americandream]

americandream, you have a very bizzare rose-tinted view of the US. Especially for one who does not live here. ... They can now no longer respond appropriately because they are living in a John Wayne fantasy world, where the most reckless cowboy wins against impossible odds. It doesn't happen that way in the real world.

Hardly rose tinted. Just factual.

It's hardly surprising that the US (it's powered elite I mean) rose as you explain. Nor is it surprising that that small group grabbed the US's reins of power and allied with the English ruling class as they did, at the intersection of changes in the British Empire. Nor is it surprising that they resoundingly beat the s*** out of the USSR with Saudi aid and goat herding muslim proxies in '80's Afghanistan. Nor is it any surprise that they astutely commandeered Mao's ambivalence and innate nationalism to their own advantage, thus positioning themselves in the extraction of what is and promises to be a massive surplus that will project them into the ranks of super gods in terms of wealth. What is surprising is that you, as a supposed diplomat, know none of this.

[Cid_Yama]

That's twice you've smeared my career. It is specifically because I was an Assistant Secretary of State, that I have the perspective I do.

Ad hom deleted. You want to paint the US as all heroic and godlike be my guess, but you are living in a delusion.

[drgoodword]

After sampling various media reportings, opinionings and discussions throughout the day, along with civilian online chatterings, it seems to me that the psychological effect of this ratings downgrade by one private credit rating agency has been substantial. A few observations...

1) There doesn't seem to be any serious pushback to the downgrade itself. The vast majority of journalists and pundits seem to accept this downgrade as a correct reflection of fiscal reality. I know this seems pretty obvious, but I'd expect a little more reflexive patriotism, at least from certain quarters. Or a contrary opinion to the downgrade on CNN in the name of "balanced" reporting. However, very few people, if any, seem to be suggesting that this move by S & P is anti-American, or politcally motivated or somehow fixed. And the counter-meme launched by the White House that S & P made "a basic math error of significant consequence," while factually valid (although of debatable significance), seems to have gained little traction in the associated media and public discussion.

2) As noted upthread, China has taken this as an opportunity to give America a very loud and public spanking. The Xinhua news agency's editorial suggesting that "international supervision over the issue of U.S. dollars should be introduced," is a real jaw-dropper. China and other nations have been working steadily over the last few years to transition away from the greenback as the world's reserve currency, and it looks like they will try to take full advantage of the downgrade to further this goal.

3) The man on the street is genuinely panicked. It's as if some people have, in one day, gone through a debt crisis version of peak oil awareness shock (that feeling of utter doom you get when you first stumble upon the idea of peak oil and process some of its more dire possibile consequences). It seems that this credit downgrade has cast an even darker shadow than the economic madhouse roller coaster of 2007/8. Even some -- not many, but some -- of the posters on this site seem to have had their outlook somewhat shaken by the downgrade, and we've been talking about the collapse of the dollar (both related to and independent of Peak Oil, depending on your view), along with related collapses of the housing market and the general economy ever since I've been here, which is Feb 2006. Since even before the "first dip" of the current recession (I know we are not in an "official" recssion at the moment, but I belong to the camp that maintains the Great Recession never ended), I suspect most of us here have had a clearly marked place set aside, at least mentally, for the second shoe of economic collapse to fall. However, it seems that until this week, most of our fellow citizens were credulously and earnestly watering their own personal garden of phantom green shoots. If there's any truth to this point (point #3), then it's amazing how perception can change on the basis of a simple statement of opinion.

If the idea of a suddenly weaker American economy, with no near-term hope of improvement, continues to take hold, then I think the markets are going to take an incredible beating this upcoming week. And gold is going to shoot through $1700 like a rocket.

[eXpat]

2) As noted upthread, China has taken this as an opportunity to give America a very loud and public spanking. The Xinhua news agency's editorial suggesting that "international supervision over the issue of U.S. dollars should be introduced," is a real jaw-dropper. China and other nations have been working steadily over the last few years to transition away from the greenback as the world's reserve currency, and it looks like they will try to take full advantage of the downgrade to further this goal.

Amen to that drgoodword, this could be the opportunity that many have been waiting to finally run to the exit door that everybody has been eyeing for so long.

[americandream]

That's twice you've smeared my career. It is specifically because I was an Assistant Secretary of State, that I have the perspective I do.
Ad hom deleted. You want to paint the US as all heroic and godlike be my guess, but you are living in a delusion.

I don't see a smear when I look at my posts as I knwo nothing about your competence as a working person. Just a puzzlement that you seem to miss the obvious. Nor do I view the US as godlike. No more godlike than all the other elites in the Arab world, England, Africa etc, etc. The fact that they perhaps played more astutely than some of the others mirrors every strata of society where one finds a mix of astute and not so astute judgements. And it has to be said, that the ruling class in the US have been astute in positioning themselves at the pinnacle of the world's table. So to that extent, I think that all this hot air over the downgrade, is just that. I don't see anything calamitrous coming from this. To the contrary, I see the US ruling elite in fact entrenching their positions. The working man will suffer, but thus is life in a world of dog eat dog.

[americandream]

China is merely reiterating the Republican position on spending. What's new?

[Cid_Yama]

The fact that they perhaps played more astutely than some of the others mirrors every strata of society where one finds a mix of astute and not so astute judgements. And it has to be said, that the ruling class in the US have been astute in positioning themselves at the pinnacle of the world's table. So to that extent, I think that all this hot air over the downgrade, is just that. I don't see anything calamitrous coming from this. To the contrary, I see the US ruling elite in fact entrenching their positions. The working man will suffer, but thus is life in a world of dog eat dog.

Did I say other than what you just said? The only thing different seems to be your dismissing the downgrade. As it won't be calamitous for myself because of my holdings, It won't be calamitous for many of means. But it will destroy the national government. Which is, as I said before, what I believe the goal of, to use Roosevelt's term, the Captains of Industry.

Heck, Charles Koch has called himself an Autarchist, and for all intents and purposes declared that his goal. They want national governments out of their way. But this will be devastating for the masses, and I believe those who are behind all this are misjudging the fallout.

[americandream]

Which is, as I said before, what I believe the goal of, to use Roosevelt's term, the Captains of Industry.
Heck, Charles Koch has called himself an Autarchist, and for all intents and purposes declared that his goal. They want national governments out of their way.

Absolutely!!

[PrestonSturges]

I'm just surprised that Obama willingly entered the job as he did knowing what he MUST have as an academic lawyer. I said so then, and I say it again. Obama must have believed he could make a difference, instead, he is the fall guy for the market deregulation snakes.

Sometimes its ok to be the fall guy if you can make a bunch of your friends wealthy, and not get yourself [in trouble] in the process. Seems like he's doing a pretty good job at it so far.

Everyone has had jobs where they knew they were being set up to fail. Heck maybe most jobs are that way, it's just that the saboteurs get distracted and by chance something constructive gets done.

[Keith_McClary]

You get paid proportionate to what you produce, by definition.

And "You get what you pay for", by definition. But often it's worth a lot less.

I would say: "You get paid as little as the employment market will bear, regardless of the value of what you produce".

[Cid_Yama]

No matter what your ideology says, no matter how wealthy or powerful you are, working to topple the Government of the United States of America is Treason.

I hope the FBI is on this one like flies on sh*t.

[AgentR11]

I suspect what these guys are after is not "toppling" but "neutering". After all, the US Gov't provides the playground and keeps the scorecard.

[americandream]

No matter what your ideology says, no matter how wealthy or powerful you are, working to topple the Government of the United States of America is Treason. I hope the FBI is on this one like flys on sh*t.

It's hard to determine whose done what to whom however. The whole affair is so nebulous as to be almost phantom like in detail. All it will do is simply notch up the Thatcherite/Raeganite experiment started decades ago, IMHO.

After all, not only is the US being accused of being overly indebted, so is Europe. And the calls are coming from the very venue that Western capitalism has flown to roost in, China. With support coming from other equally rich venues such as Saudi and the Gulf states I wouldn't be surprised. We live in strange and bizarre times.