[Sys1]

Hey, in the movie "2012" it was because of neutrinos that the world as we know it ended

[dorlomin]

This is all nice, but neutrinos have nothing to do with our ordinary lives or even celestial mechanics.

So basically you know nothing about science.

[Keith_McClary]

Faster than the speed of light means that messages can be sent into the past. Go ahead and lecture, please.

That is a heuristic not a law. We cannot accelerate body with mass to the speed of light because as it gets faster it appears to gain mass. The closer to c the more mass. It approaches near infite mass at near c hence requires infinite energy to accelerate.

But if a body was always travelling faster than light it does not violate relativity. The problem arises if it interacts with ordinary matter.
If something is travelling faster than light in your reference frame, say from event A to event B with B later than A, then there are other frames in which B is earlier than A. If the body carries energy,this messes up causality and conservation laws.

[EnergyUnlimited]

But if a body was always travelling faster than light it does not violate relativity. The problem arises if it interacts with ordinary matter.
If something is travelling faster than light in your reference frame, say from event A to event B with B later than A, then there are other frames in which B is earlier than A. If the body carries energy,this messes up causality and conservation laws.

Yes, tachyonic bullet would kill you before gun was fired...

These breaches of causality are very obvious with FTL objects.
This causality protection is perhaps even more critical for integrity of physics than conservation laws.

However one could try to defend conservation laws by arguments that interactions of FTL objects are only "borrowing" energy from the future... very much like Alan Greenspan was borrowing prosperity from the future.

One way or another allowing FTL objects to interact with ordinary matter throws causality to the dustbin and by the same such objects and interactions are resistant to investigation by scientific method.

We would have to accept that rabbits tend to appear in the hat for no reason.

But who knows... possibly our entire Universe came to existence in such a way.

[EnergyUnlimited]

This is all nice, but neutrinos have nothing to do with our ordinary lives or even celestial mechanics.

I am not sure.
They can account for few % of so called Dark Matter and hence influence celestial mechanics on galactic scale to significant degree.

[evilgenius]

Faster than the speed of light means that messages can be sent into the past. Go ahead and lecture, please.

That is a heuristic not a law. We cannot accelerate body with mass to the speed of light because as it gets faster it appears to gain mass. The closer to c the more mass. It approaches near infite mass at near c hence requires infinite energy to accelerate.

But if a body was always travelling faster than light it does not violate relativity. The problem arises if it interacts with ordinary matter.
If something is travelling faster than light in your reference frame, say from event A to event B with B later than A, then there are other frames in which B is earlier than A. If the body carries energy,this messes up causality and conservation laws.

It's spacetime, not time. There is no ticking clock in the universe like there is in a computer. That means that energy over spacetime traveling faster than light is not going to act in the same way as energy over spacetime traveling slower than light. An example is how light radiates in the world we know. In a faster than light world it condenses to the point of origin, which to us is in the past.

[sicophiliac]

So thev've determined some minute particles can travel slightly faster than the speed of light. Practical engineering and usage value of this discovery...........................

Probably true, but then again stone age man might have stepped into a hot puddle of nasty black goo bubbling out of the ground, looked at it with disgust and moved on.

Also somebody from the dark ages might notice that when handling their clothing or sheets or whatever they may have had they felt a slight static shock or tingle from time to time. To them that would have been mysterious and annoying and yet they would have no clue whatsoever to the future technological significance to that phenomenon.

[rangerone314]

Hopefully this is just a miscalibration of their instruments.

Humanity neither deserves nor is ready for the stars.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Hopefully this is just a miscalibration of their instruments.

Humanity neither deserves nor is ready for the stars.

There is not a slightest chance that this discovery could lead to an interstellar travel.
In all probabilities said discovery (if true) would be about as useful as top quark is.

[dorlomin]

Hopefully this is just a miscalibration of their instruments.

Humanity neither deserves nor is ready for the stars.

There is not a slightest chance that this discovery could lead to an interstellar travel.
In all probabilities said discovery (if true) would be about as useful as top quark is.

Meet my little friend the muon

an unstable subatomic particle with a mean lifetime of 2.2 µs

Can anybody think of a less relevant bit of physics.

How the hell can something that boring ever be important.

But as it turns out our understanding of the Muon is now an important part of our understanding of what is happening in our climate and hence the future direction our entire civilisation has to take in the coming years. Muons created by galactic cosmic rays are thought by some to be causing variations in cloud levels that have been responsible for the observed temperature rise. I disagree but the point being we can never know where our journey of knowledge will take us. Its all important.

As for the neutrino

For a typical nuclear reactor with a thermal power of 4,000 MW, meaning that the core produces this much heat, and an electrical power generation of 1,300 MW, the total power production from fissioning atoms is actually 4,185 MW, of which 185 MW is radiated away as anti-neutrino radiation and never appears in the engineering. This is to say, 185 MW of fission energy is lost from this reactor and does not appear as heat available to run turbines, since the anti-neutrinos penetrate all building materials essentially tracelessly, and disappear.[51]

We need a knowledge of nutrinos to design nuclear power stations.


Hey who here thinks our knowledge of antimatter will never lead to any practicle tools?

Positron emission tomography (PET) is a nuclear medicine imaging technique that produces a three-dimensional image or picture of functional processes in the body. The system detects pairs of gamma rays emitted indirectly by a positron-emitting radionuclide (tracer), which is introduced into the body on a biologically active molecule. Three-dimensional images of tracer concentration within the body are then constructed by computer analysis. In modern scanners, three dimensional imaging is often accomplished with the aid of a CT X-ray scan performed on the patient during the same session, in the same machine.|

The people working on neutrinos are also working on other uses for the science. And its not just pie in the sky vapourware. Without the general relativity, your GPS would be drifting by 11km a day. Without understanding quantum mechanics we would never have developed semi conductors. Our understanding of how the sun works could only happen with a knowledge of neutrinos.

Because you don’t understand the role advanced physics plays in your life does not mean it plays no role.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Because you don’t understand the role advanced physics plays in your life does not mean it plays no role.

So how your hypothetical understanding of FTL neutrinos is going to lead you to interstellar travel?

Are you going to pretend to be one?

Are you going to load yourself into some substantially scaled up LHC pipework, acquire some electric charge and switch magnets on, then hit some gold or lead plate at 99.99999% of c, to convert yourself into burst of FTL neutrinos between other debris, allow this stream to travel to Andromeda galaxy to some sort of detector where you could end up reconstituted base on your neutrino signature?
Good luck with that.

BTW,
I do not claim that neutrinos are useless.
I claim that discovery of FTL neutrinos is useless from perspective of interstellar travel.
Completely useless in fact.

Meet my little friend the muon

an unstable subatomic particle with a mean lifetime of 2.2 µs

Can anybody think of a less relevant bit of physics.

Yes, I can.
That is top quark with a halflife of ~10 E-25 of a second.
Discovered 16 years ago and no practical uses proposed as we speak.

BTW, it allows us to study some properties of unhadronized quark matter because it lives too short to hadronize before decay.
If you are planning a trip to core of neutron star (Branson's Virgin will start selling tickets soon, I suppose), you should pay close attention.

[dorlomin]

I do not claim that neutrinos are useless.
I claim that discovery of FTL neutrinos is useless from perspective of interstellar travel.
Completely useless in fact.

No you did not just claim there would be no FTL travel but that if we discovered nutrinos could travel faster than light then this knowledge would be

There is not a slightest chance that this discovery could lead to an interstellar travel.
In all probabilities said discovery (if true) would be about as useful as top quark is.

'As useful as top quark'

I simply pointed out that a lot of 'useless' things are usefull.

And if you think that something moving faster than c is unlikely to have any impact on our science thenyou need a pretty ground up rebuilding of your understanding of science.

Thermodynamics is built upon time only having one direction exceeding c gives it two, there is a principle so deep in our science that it is the statement that all of our science starts with, "assume causality"; that would be broken or we would have discovered the entire activity of our universe is predetermined and cannot be changed (about the only way causality can be preserved in a ftl universe).

The Lorentz Einstein transformation for mass at speeds greater than c does not resolve to infinity, they resolve to a negative root. We have always assumed that negative root is an impossibility, but negative roots are a part and parcel of the quantum world, if it turns out they have some meaning that is attainable in the real world and that these neutrinos are a route to that......

[EnergyUnlimited]

And if you think that something moving faster than c is unlikely to have any impact on our science thenyou need a pretty ground up rebuilding of your understanding of science.

Thermodynamics is built upon time only having one direction exceeding c gives it two, there is a principle so deep in our science that it is the statement that all of our science starts with, "assume causality"; that would be broken or we would have discovered the entire activity of our universe is predetermined and cannot be changed (about the only way causality can be preserved in a ftl universe).

You would end up with esoteric, philosophical arguments related to causality in Universe, entirely useless from practical point of view.
GR and quantum theories are sufficient to assist us will all practical tasks which we are ever going to attempt.
Actually FTL neutrions would kill concept of causality so we would have to accept that there is a world around us not prone to investigation by scientific method.
That would lead to interesting ateism/religion arguments, eg. predetermined world v world without a reason etc.

The Lorentz Einstein transformation for mass at speeds greater than c does not resolve to infinity, they resolve to a negative root. We have always assumed that negative root is an impossibility, but negative roots are a part and parcel of the quantum world, if it turns out they have some meaning that is attainable in the real world and that these neutrinos are a route to that......

Now you don't get it at all.
In maths negative roots are freely discussed, have quite interesting properties (say 1/i = -i) and are very useful in describing RLC circuits for example, between countless other uses.

As per your Lorent-Einstein transformation:
m=m0/sqrt(1/1-v2/c2)
These neutrinos (if true) were born as FTL particles, and were not accelerated through c barrier.
The latter approach would involve infinite mass at c, so it is not a valid avenue.

Of course it would be interesting to find particles whose mass/energy has "imaginary" values.
We would get difficulty with balancing out energies involved in particular interactions of "normal" world where such neutrinos were born.

[dorlomin]

You would end up with

Amazing the best and brightest in the world have not even begun to examine the ramifications of this being true and we have a person here who is so super intellegent they can already work out what the full ramifications would be. Because that is the only way someone could make such a strong statement, you would have to be super intellegent or else super arrogant to think that you have it all sussed 4 days after the discovery.

These neutrinos (if true) were born as FTL particles, and were not accelerated through c barrier.

Accelerated? Lorentz Einstein deals with momtum. Momentum does not require acceleration. Why do you think it does?

[EnergyUnlimited]

You would end up with

Amazing the best and brightest in the world have not even begun to examine the ramifications of this being true and we have a person here who is so super intellegent they can already work out what the full ramifications would be. Because that is the only way someone could make such a strong statement, you would have to be super intellegent or else super arrogant to think that you have it all sussed 4 days after the discovery.

These subjects were discussed between physicists for long before you or me were born.
In general physicists are abhorring FTL objects interacting with ordinary matter because these are the avenue to a world where scientific method doesn't work.
World without a reason.
For the same reasons physicists are abhorring naked singularities, traversable wormholes and other similar animals.

These neutrinos (if true) were born as FTL particles, and were not accelerated through c barrier.

Accelerated? Lorentz Einstein deals with momtum. Momentum does not require acceleration. Why do you think it does?

Again, in my previous post I have specified a version of Lorentz equation relevant for my argument.
You will easy find out of that while approaching c mass grows to infinity (at c) and above c it becomes imaginary.
Easy.

[evilgenius]

Thermodynamics is built upon time only having one direction exceeding c gives it two, there is a principle so deep in our science that it is the statement that all of our science starts with, "assume causality"; that would be broken or we would have discovered the entire activity of our universe is predetermined and cannot be changed (about the only way causality can be preserved in a ftl universe).

The Lorentz Einstein transformation for mass at speeds greater than c does not resolve to infinity, they resolve to a negative root. We have always assumed that negative root is an impossibility, but negative roots are a part and parcel of the quantum world, if it turns out they have some meaning that is attainable in the real world and that these neutrinos are a route to that......

Now hold on, hold on. If you have a device that produces neutrinos and as they pass through matter, let's say that they displace the lowest level electron in time. You should see an x-ray cascade. If it is some kind of phase change involving the neutrino and the electron due to the angular momentum of the neutrino increasing its probable size under these conditions, then both of them may have been effected by the phase change. The x-ray cascade will therefore be in timing with the displaced time. Now, realize this. When you turn the thing on the x-rays won't come before you flip the switch. They will come instant on, as if there were no delay for processes that ought to take some fraction of time.

What people don't realize is that there has always been no reason for time bias. The arrow of time is a construct of our minds and the observations we make in a universe where energy is moving at light or slower than light speeds. One photon (for lack of a better term) reaches a band gap and it excites the release of more like it that re-radiate light. Even if you managed to reverse a new photon back to the band gap you wouldn't be able to change the interaction at the band gap that brought it about. To even hope for that you would need to capture all photons, and whatever else. If those photons have already been involved in other further interactions then you would have tried too late. Even if you could do it you would soon hit the next wall, the effect of energy brought into the nuclear system by all other aspects of the nuclear system as they traverse space time. E does equal mc squared, even if you can travel faster than light.

[EnergyUnlimited]

E does equal mc squared, even if you can travel faster than light.

But hey,
Above c your E has an imaginary value.
That is because mass of FTL object is also imaginary...

[evilgenius]

E does equal mc squared, even if you can travel faster than light.

But hey,
Above c your E has an imaginary value.
That is because mass of FTL object is also imaginary...

Only in the sense that it is not where you expect it.

[radon]

1. Theory of relativity, which postulates (for dummies) that the speed of light is constant and cannot be exceeded, is what it is - a theory.

The situation with its introduction was similar to the OP's one - scientists observed phenomena that could not be explained by the classical Newton's mechanics, and to resolve this problem Einstein introduced the theory of relativity.

Now scientists observe a phenomenon that cannot be explained by the theory of relativity - they may well introduce another theory to deal with the new knowledge.

2. A particle traveling faster than light is obviously a very useful step forward. We may finally be able to communicate with remote destinations in outer space without much delay, be that human-made satellites or aliens or just physical objects like stars or planets. It may also somehow revolutionize our own terrestrial communications.

[sicophiliac]

Perhaps a simpler explanation is that, given neutrinos are still considered to be somewhat mysterious particles, they somehow slip out of or phase out of ever our 3 dimensional brane. They wouldn't need to actually travel faster than light in a traditional sense but rather shortcut ever so slightly out of our universe. Perhaps this is also might have something to do with their seeming inability to interact with matter and to very easily pass through the entire earth without any interaction with atomic nuclei or what not.