[Lore]

There is no one in Italy being paid as low a wage as the US minimum wage. Italy pays a living wage.

Italy is a good example of how collective bargaining raises wages for everyone, not just the sector they are bargaining for.

In my career, I have worked for Italian companies and have had the opportunity to visit Italy often. One of the things I would often remark about is how year after year coming back to the same restaurants there, you would find the very same professional waiters. They are making a living wage without tips to do so. It takes half as many of them to wait on people during a busy night and still give attention to service that we could only dream about here in the US. It's a respected job that shows you get what you pay for.

[EnergyUnlimited]

You are calling $250 weekly pay to be unfair and you consider workers earning this to be poor.

So look for example on Indian standards of pay where blue collar worker is earning $ 20 per week.

1. Comparison is apples to oranges. Cost of living is not comparable.

2. Do you really want India as a model for the US? May sound great to the bloodsucking rich, but US citizens will be dragging them from their expensive cars and stringing them up before such a thing were allowed.

Re 1. As we speak you are correct.
However in near future you will witness collapse of Western standards of life which are not sustainable anyway and then there will be comparable pay in US and in India.
OK, in US pay may be *twice* higher.

Re 2. These are not *wants* but considerations what is sustainable and long term affordable what one must consider.
I also believe that *rich* will take care of themselves and pulling them out of cars will be a really rare occurrence and substantial retaliations against perpetrators will follow.

As I have said, don't even dream about revolution as disparity in access to arms between public and TPTB is so huge that it would be a plain madness to start armed struggle.
Just no prospect of success.
All what you may hope for is systemic collapse as time pass.
Then, subjected to some intelligent actions, you may get a chance to join this 5-20% who will enjoy personal freedom in feudal systems of the future.

[Cog]

It may have escaped Italy supporters but your country is on the edge of bankruptcy. So much for those sustainable living wages.

[Pretorian]

This problem is easily solved. Double the miminum wage and provide basic healthcare.
Show a little compassion for God's sake. $500.00 a week take home pay for 40 hrs/wk and the ability to go get a prescription when you need one, is not a lot to ask.

Reduce executive pay to reasonable levels and you won't even take a hit on your profits.

You can reduce their pay to a negative amount , extract their kidneys and make them donate bone marrow regularly to be sold to the highest bidder, and it won't get your fantasy closer even by an inch.

Doubling , and tripling of the minimum wage can easily be done. But who will be hiring then, mind me asking? Most of those who make less than $16 an hour will be fired, and many of those who make more also. Is this a move to a social stability?

If you want social stability, you have to pay for it one way or another. Take the easy route and pay a living wage.

USA is already spending well over a trillion dollars per year on social charities, not counting states, counties, cities budgets . Costs per taxpayer are astronomical.

By the way, living wage--> wage that allows you to live, is about 30-35 cents a day. Well may be around $1 for hard physical labor. Round up all of you who wants to work for a living wage and I will hire you all.

[Serial_Worrier]

Radiohead and Massive Attack to release a live gig on pay what you want in support of Occupy.

Well that solved my problem of wondering if I would continue to listen to those bands' music. *deletes Radiohead and Massive Attack from music library*

[Serial_Worrier]

Define "living wage". Does it mean affording a luxury condo, iPhone and fully paid up car?

[Pretorian]

Living wage is whatever amount of money that is needed to buy 40-60 g of protein, same amounts of fat and twice as much of starch or sugar , a vitamin pill and 1.5-2.5 liters of water.

[AgentR11]

P... that's just cruel, (4x40) + (9*40) + (4*80) = 840. Water looked ok though.
Seriously, you need to add some more fat and starch. I recommend adding a ration cup of 100g of peanut butter / day to your living wage. Brings their caloric intake up another 600, plus add a slice of bread, and it should get them to a round 1500. This will insure better working performance in mythe peanut fields. (lol jk)

The term "living wage" is actually kinda hard to define in the US since at low income levels a lot of the cost of labor that should show up in wages and paid by the worker, are actually shifted to society in general via taxes and government subsidy for health, food, and shelter. In addition, I think our model of *how* these folks should attempt to live is broken for a resource constrained world. We tell them/ourselves that living with a lot of roomates outside ma/pa/baby1/baby2 is somehow wrong; when in point of fact, living in a more communal setting with multiple low wage earners paying a single rent (NOT company mandated housing, THAT is evil in general) can make a lot of sense and provide a fairly pleasant lifestyle.

A lot of things need to change in the US before one can have a rational discussion about living wages, valuation of work, etc. Like or not, the changes are being forced even as we type by the weight of economics; Americans like to resist reality though, so expect plenty of suffering before we get there.

[Pretorian]

We tell them/ourselves that living with a lot of roomates outside ma/pa/baby1/baby2 is somehow wrong; when in point of fact, living in a more communal setting with multiple low wage earners paying a single rent (NOT company mandated housing, THAT is evil in general) can make a lot of sense and provide a fairly pleasant lifestyle.

a company can provide a few bunk-beds as a part of the compensation package , to top that gruel and TV.
win-win for both parties.

[AgentR11]

Unfortunately, companies have a catastrophically bad habit of charging much higher than market rates, and making it impractical for employees to reside anywhere other than in employer owned/related housing.

I like cheap, but HONESTLY cheap tactics. Coercive... not so much.

[Plantagenet]

dup post

[Bruce_S]

Define "living wage". Does it mean affording a luxury condo, iPhone and fully paid up car?

and cable tv and bar hopping money and vacation money and maybe a ski cabin in the mountains and so on and so forth. Part of the reason why America sunk into a consumerist routine in the first place, we got too damn rich.

[Plantagenet]

I'm in SF for a science conference, and my hotel is right across the street from OCCUPY SAN FRANCISCO. There were about 100 tents in a little park---nice folks for the most part.

Last night the police busted the camp. About 2 in the morning they swept the park, tool all the camping gear, and flushed the Occupiers out of the park. Over 50 folks were arrested.

When I came back from the conference this afternoon I was suddenly walking by squads of police in riot gear. Dozens of other cops were on motorcycles, and dozens more on dirt bikes. Overhead was not one, but TWO police helicopters, buzzing like angry hornets and shining their bright spotlights down on the park. There was a flock of TV news trucks with coiffered anchors and anchorettes doing live "on the scene" broadcasts from the scene of the action.

They were waiting for Occupy San Francisco to come back. The police were going to arrest anyone who tried to get back in the park. The survivors of the Occupy Camp were re-assembling over on the sidewalk in front of the SF Federal Reserve Bank Building. I went down to chat with some of the Occupiers and then hung out to listen as they discussed what to do next. Folks told their stories about being arrested and beaten and run over by cops on motorcycles. Many of them were very hoarse from screaming at the police all night.

They werent' sure what to do next----but they didn't have any quit in them---even some of the demonstrators who had been beaten pretty badly while being arrested seemed ready to keep protesting.

[Plantagenet]

There is no one in Italy being paid as low a wage as the US minimum wage.

Why not face facts---Italy has no minimum wage law, and some workers in Italy are forced to slave for only 80 cents an hour.

ItalyRules, do you really think the Italian 1% wouldn't pay low wages to other Italians? Why not face facts--- There are lots of people in Italy being paid even lower wages then the US minimum wage, BECAUSE ITALY DOESN"T HAVE A MINIMUM WAGE LAW.

Without a minimum wage law, the evil captitalists in Italy can pay almost slave wages to the workers.

Here is an example: "there is no minimum wage legislation set in Italy. I'm not sure how much longer they can get away with it though...

>This .... speaks of a 'possible' €1100 pm minimum BEFORE stoppages for tax, SSN etc...

You note that I only said it 'speaks' of such things. The average Italian and trade union would love such legislation, but alas the back street employers (not the CONFINDUSTRIA - though they're not totally adverse to keeping wages low either!) are another matter alltogether! They will continue to pay the lowest possible wages, and where possible 'in nero', for as long as they can get away with it. I know of young people who are paid €10 for an 8 hour day (€0.80c - £0.76 per hour) for assmbling electronic components in a small facrory outside Milano. They have NO rights, and work is on an 'as and when' basis! So they're always on a hiding to nothing while their employers laugh all the way to the bank!"

Some factory workers in Italy earn only 80 cents an hour BECAUSE ITALY HAS NO MINIMUM WAGE LAW

[Lore]

Italy has no minimum wage law, and some workers in Italy are forced to slave for only 80 cents an hour.

Which is exactly why Italy is unionized to the max. Get rid of the minimum wage here in the US if you'd like to see a resurgence in unions.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Italy has no minimum wage law, and some workers in Italy are forced to slave for only 80 cents an hour.

Which is exactly why Italy is unionized to the max. Get rid of the minimum wage here in the US if you'd like to see a resurgence in unions.

Union of bankers will prevent further unionization.

[Pretorian]

Italy has no minimum wage law, and some workers in Italy are forced to slave for only 80 cents an hour.

Which is exactly why Italy is unionized to the max.

And that is exactly why Italy is broke. Who in his own mind would pay ridiculous salaries to self-glorified lazy-bags, aside of state which has to borrow from whomever.

[Plantagenet]

Which is exactly why Italy is unionized to the max.

Why are there so many mis-statements and outright lies about Italy? Italy is a bankrupt, economic basket case with very high unemployment for the young. Wages are very low for non-union workers.

AND, when it comes to union membership, less than 30% of Italians are in unions.

less than 30% of Italians are in labor unions----the ruthless 1% exploit the remaining 70%



The unions and good paying jobs are concentrated in industrial areas with lots of skilled workers near Milan and in northern Italy where the country feels almost Germanic---but if you go to southern Italy or SIcily the poverty is everywhere.

[Serial_Worrier]

When my permaculture preps are all done and I have the majority of annual beds planted, and solar panels & water purification/cachement installed within 10 years, I will care less about inflation.

As per my taste you are going unduly high tech.
Just dig a well. Water from well does not need any further purification and is also (usually) very tasty.
I know it first hand.

On the other hand solar panels (PV) are just a waste of money.
You cannot repair them in case of any fault, they are advertising you to be a target of looting and their purchase drains your existing valuable resources.
I would not consider these, unless I have $ 2 millions+ in savings and a property allowing to conceal them somehow.

Permaculture garden is OK.

Explain me how you will survive in the absence of modern medicine WHEN you get sick.

[Cid_Yama]

A living wage is food to eat, clothes on your back, a roof over your head, a way to get back and forth to work, antibiotics when you need them, and enough health care that you don't die or lose limbs needlessly.

Very simple, if you are not trying to obfuscate the issue.

Pre-civil war south they actually took care of their slaves as they were assets.

Modern corporations discovered they are interchangable, like cogs, so there is no need to preserve them. There are always more to take their place.

Is that the world we want to live in?

I think not.