[Keith_McClary]

I'd love to believe in an afterlife, it's a very comforting thought

So, we die, and then we wake up and find we have sprouted wings and get to sit around on clouds for eternity? The only activity seems to be playing harp. It would take me eternity to get good at that.

[Pretorian]

The idea is, if there is any chance there is an afterlife and that it follows there is a hell, the smart money will go for "belief" because the trade off of a short "believers's" life (whatever that is) vs an eternity in hell is a good bet.

Wrong. What ? Smart money? Are you serious? There are were tens of thousands of religions and surely thousands of them were threatening people with all kinds of tortures for not giving their priests money/favors. So assuming you give each fairy tale an equal opportunity to roast your behind in hell, there are absolutely no chance to satisfy them all since many of them have different requirements for behavior. Even if for some unknown reason you believe/think that only one of all those fables is true, ( say Christianity ) there are tens of thousands of sects each of them promising one another eternal flames as a punishment for reading Bible in a wrong language/ wrong fasting dates/wrong holiday dates/wrong dances with tambourines / wrong underwear/ you were giving money to a wrong priest/you name it. There are also extinct sects and there is no way to save your behind from roasting if they were right and everyone else is wrong.

Most importantly, " afterlife" does not make any logical sense. Why would it be there? To make you cosy? Is this what the Universe is about -- to make sure that everyone is taken care of ?
Remember, most of the animals, humans included, die in their youth/infancy. Why would a "creator" bother with making an entirely different realm ( or create all these continuous " rebirths" ) to accommodate those quintillions of quadrillions of deaths? What's the point?

[AgentR11]

Are you serious? There are were tens of thousands of religions...

...and...

" afterlife" does not make any logical sense. Why would it be there? To make you cosy?...

This is all PoV reasoning. How man views the (prospective) deity. But to ask the question "why", requires swapping point of views, as the source of that eternal life is the divine will for it to be so. Basic reasoning is that God does love us, and originally crafted us to be undying but with the unique ability to act counter to that design. He never wanted us to die in the first place, and has crafted a "backup plan" whereby we do die in the world but do not die in spirit; otherwise stated as "going to heaven". Thus, His design goal is satisfied, and the consequence of our own actions also remains satisfied (original sin).

Now, this is kinda odd for me to argue, as I have more than a few doubts concerning this "heaven"; even though I feel no similar doubts about the existence of the creating deity; I just chalk it up to it as being something that exceeds my comprehension, and God can explain it to me later, in heaven, if there is such an existence, and if the existence of such an existence still troubles me. And if there's not, its no different than getting knocked out for surgery, lights off, party over, no more nothin. Nothing to get bent out of shape over.

*nb... I use "crafted" like this to avoid the creation/evolution stupidity. Don't care, doesn't matter, either, both, or neither is fine for the above argument.

Why would a "creator" bother with making an entirely different realm ( or create all these continuous " rebirths" ) to accommodate those quintillions of quadrillions of deaths? What's the point?

Its not an entirely different realm; it is the Creator's initial realm. The effort was in creating the "entirely different realm" we know of as the physical universe. One would suppose something like the Big Bang is non-trivial, no? And the reincarnation set would argue that the continuous rebirth cycle is the natural, default state, and effort/intent has to be made (in particular as an instance of attaining enlightenment/bodhisatva-isitating/etc) to break free of that natural cycle.

As to point? That's easy. God enjoys us.

[Lore]

I'd love to believe in an afterlife, it's a very comforting thought

So, we die, and then we wake up and find we have sprouted wings and get to sit around on clouds for eternity? The only activity seems to be playing harp. It would take me eternity to get good at that.

Which is exactly why humans cling to the idea.

[Subjectivist]

I'd love to believe in an afterlife, it's a very comforting thought

So, we die, and then we wake up and find we have sprouted wings and get to sit around on clouds for eternity? The only activity seems to be playing harp. It would take me eternity to get good at that.

What faith does that come from? Just curious, in Biblical Christianity nothing like that harp wing cloud thing goes on, that is cartoon Hollywood style afterlife.

Based on the book of Revelations born again Christians are ensured they not only won't be condemed for their sins but instead they get rewarded with the duty to rule and reign under The Christ as his governors during the millenial reign. The greater your work to further the faith during your life the greater your responsibility in the afterlife. I am a subject of Jesus the Christ, my King, hence my handle here on peak oil. I don't do all I could to further the faith so my reward in the afterlife will be small, those like the thief on the cross next to the Christ will have great reward because his act has been used for nearly 2000 years to inspire others to act faithfully.

[Pops]

I said "the idea is..." I was actually trying to tie "afterlife" it to GW.

Anyway it's called Pascals Wager, here from wiki:

If you believe in God and God does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven: thus an infinite gain.
If you do not believe in God and God does exist, you will be condemned to remain in hell forever: thus an infinite loss.
If you believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded: thus a finite loss.
If you do not believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded, but you have lived your own life: thus a finite gain.

I'm ambiguous on the idea of a creator, I mean god makes no sense to me except as the ultimate scape goat for whatever I do wrong. It's kind of the ultimate conspiracy theory isn't it? The baptist god had a plan for everything so set us up to fail in the garden, then saved us with his son although disappointed with our choices (or Eve's at least) and so now whenever bad things happen we blame it on the plan, say it's God's will and hope to go meet him when we die and watch as he smites all those money changers... Hard to balance the avenging god with the loving god in my little mind.

Obviously I'm not big on religion, one thing I stake my everlasting soul on is god has nothing to do with man's religions. Church is good for folks who enjoy that sort of fellowship, I don't begrudge them their faith, I've known lots of wonderful Christians but to be frank I kinda believe they are wonderful in spite of their church not because of it.

So is there an after life sans creator or church doctrine? I dunno, I'll post an update when I find out, or not. lol

[Keith_McClary]

wings and get to sit around on clouds for eternity? The only activity seems to be playing harp.

What faith does that come from? Just curious, in Biblical Christianity nothing like that harp wing cloud thing goes on, that is cartoon Hollywood style afterlife.

I don't know, it goes back before Hollywood:

Luca Signorelli, 1500
Where does "Christian Marriage" (monogamous) come from?

I am a subject of Jesus the Christ, my King, hence my handle here on peak oil.

So, not the dictionary definition of "subjectivist".

[Subjectivist]

wings and get to sit around on clouds for eternity? The only activity seems to be playing harp.

What faith does that come from? Just curious, in Biblical Christianity nothing like that harp wing cloud thing goes on, that is cartoon Hollywood style afterlife.

I don't know, it goes back before Hollywood:
Luca Signorelli, 1500
Where does "Christian Marriage" (monogamous) come from?

Monogamy as a Christian tenet came out of the Roman church, multiple marriage as a way of bringing widows and orphans into your home is an old testement Biblical principal. Every man of the old testement faith was responsible for his brother/cousin/uncle's widow and children if he died. Read the book of Ruth, she was married to a man who died along with his brother and father. She traveled with her mother in law back to Isreal where she married her deceased family's closest available relative.

Romans were big on both divorce and monogamy, rather like modern western democracies where we practice serial monogamy. In the Bible marriage is serious business and though divorce was permitted it was discouraged and reconcilliation was encouraged as being the better path.

By the way that painting is depicting Angel's which are a seperate creation from humans. Nowhere in the Bible will you find the statement that human souls in the afterlife will be given wings like Angel's. we are told we will be given perfect incoruptible (unaging) bodies and will recognize one another.

I wish everyone would know the Christ as I know him, but I am not a good advocate. Those who wish to learn need only ask Him for guidance to a good advocate who can explain better than I. My Christ gives me peace in troubled times, He gives me friendship without demands, love without a reason. No one I have ever know is as patient or compasionate as my Christ is to me. I can't put in words all He does for me to make life bareable.

[Keith_McClary]

Monogamy as a Christian tenet came out of the Roman church, multiple marriage as a way of bringing widows and orphans into your home is an old testement Biblical principal. Every man of the old testement faith was responsible for his brother/cousin/uncle's widow and children if he died. Read the book of Ruth, she was married to a man who died along with his brother and father. She traveled with her mother in law back to Isreal where she married her deceased family's closest available relative.

Some flavours of Judaeo-Christianity are always spouting Scripture (not saying this includes you), but if I ask them "Do you follow that 'Biblical principle' about marriage, and what about keeping kosher and making burnt sacrifices", the answer is something like:

I wish everyone would know the Christ as I know him, but I am not a good advocate. Those who wish to learn need only ask Him for guidance to a good advocate who can explain better than I. My Christ gives me peace in troubled times, He gives me friendship without demands, love without a reason. No one I have ever know is as patient or compasionate as my Christ is to me. I can't put in words all He does for me to make life bareable.

One Christian told me I would need to go to Bible school to understand these mysteries.

[Beery1]

My Christ gives me peace in troubled times, He gives me friendship without demands, love without a reason. No one I have ever know is as patient or compasionate as my Christ is to me. I can't put in words all He does for me to make life bareable.

Your Christ is a fantasy like Santa Claus. He brings the presents that adults crave - the promise of friendship, love, patience, compassion when these are missing from reality. But unlike Santa, there is no real person providing those things, so you need to fool yourself into believing that they're real.

Theists need to grow up. Reality doesn't come with a happy ending. Grown-ups can deal with that without going all schizophrenic.

[aldente]

What is the opposite of someone who is in charge?

Here a pic of a guy who is "not in the loop" when it comes to understanding afterlife:

[Keith_McClary]

I couldn't resist dropping "imaginary friend" into Google Image search.

[Pretorian]

I said "the idea is..." I was actually trying to tie "afterlife" it to GW.

Anyway it's called Pascals Wager, here from wiki:

If you believe in God and God does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven: thus an infinite gain.
If you do not believe in God and God does exist, you will be condemned to remain in hell forever: thus an infinite loss.
If you believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded: thus a finite loss.
If you do not believe in God and God does not exist, you will not be rewarded, but you have lived your own life: thus a finite gain.

I am aware of what you were getting at, I just don't understand why ( a lot of people ) assume that all of this is a some sort of a 50/50. There are more than 30 000 of known (recorded ) gods probably a good 100 000 of forgotten ones, and probability that one particular version of worship is true while all other are not is not 1 to 30000 , not 1 to 130 000, it is one to infinity. Probably a lil bit less than that for Christianity in particular.

[Narz]

I couldn't resist dropping "imaginary friend" into Google Image search.

Very nice.

[Keith_McClary]

probability that one particular version of worship is true while all other are not is not 1 to 30000 ...

No problem:

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

[Subjectivist]

Monogamy as a Christian tenet came out of the Roman church, multiple marriage as a way of bringing widows and orphans into your home is an old testement Biblical principal. Every man of the old testement faith was responsible for his brother/cousin/uncle's widow and children if he died. Read the book of Ruth, she was married to a man who died along with his brother and father. She traveled with her mother in law back to Isreal where she married her deceased family's closest available relative.

Some flavours of Judaeo-Christianity are always spouting Scripture (not saying this includes you), but if I ask them "Do you follow that 'Biblical principle' about marriage, and what about keeping kosher and making burnt sacrifices", the answer is something like:

I wish everyone would know the Christ as I know him, but I am not a good advocate. Those who wish to learn need only ask Him for guidance to a good advocate who can explain better than I.i My Christ gives me peace in troubled times, He gives me friendship without demands, love without a reason. No one I have ever know is as patient or compasionate as my Christ is to me. I can't put in words all He does for me to make life bareable.

One Christian told me I would need to go to Bible school to understand these mysteries.

That strikes me as rather odd, for a Christian to not know why we don't have to keep Kosher dietary laws, or practice circumcision, or practice animal sacrifice and burnt offerings. Kosher dietary laws are a way to make sure your food is healthy for the average congregant, foods that had high negative consequences like trichinosis carried in pork or anaphalaxis caused by shelfish were prevented. In fact under Kosher diet you were forbidden to eat any animal that was either predatory or a scavanger and more likely to carry diseases. Leviticus and Deuteronomy give the Kosher laws, but they also give sanitation law, cleanliness laws, as well as rules for worship like sacrifices.

The ideal worship included animal sacrifice for covering of sinful acts, preferable a perfect lamb without blemish. The Christ was crucified as the ultimate sacrifice, his perfect blood covers all sin past present and future.

I think most of the "Christians" you have met who can not answer those kind of questions are people who grew up in the church and never really learned why they are told to behave in a certain ways. They know what and how, but not the why behind them. I came to this faith late in my 20's so I studied up on when, where, why, and how it developed from Abram to today.

[Beery1]

That strikes me as rather odd, for a Christian to not know why we don't have to keep Kosher dietary laws, or practice circumcision...
Leviticus and Deuteronomy give the Kosher laws, but they also give sanitation law, cleanliness laws, as well as rules for worship like sacrifices...

Yeah - the Jews really had their shit together - like circumcision - a procedure that severely damages penile function (although circumcised men don't know it - heck, most intact men don't even know what the foreskin does, so what chance do circumcised men have?) and vastly increases the potential for infection, even in a modern hospital environment - has anything to do with sanitation and cleanliness. But heck, the Jews do it, so it must have had a reason - it couldn't just be because some influential 5th Century BC sexual deviant nutcase priest decided that cutting off babys' genitals was 'holy law'.

[Keith_McClary]

That strikes me as rather odd, for a Christian to not know why we don't have to keep Kosher dietary laws, or practice circumcision, or practice animal sacrifice and burnt offerings.
...
I think most of the "Christians" you have met who can not answer those kind of questions are people who grew up in the church and never really learned why they are told to behave in a certain ways. They know what and how, but not the why behind them. I came to this faith late in my 20's so I studied up on when, where, why, and how it developed from Abram to today.

My point was, why don't you also keep the marriage "laws" (or "Biblical principles" - is there a difference?)?

"When in Rome ... "?

[Tanada]

That strikes me as rather odd, for a Christian to not know why we don't have to keep Kosher dietary laws, or practice circumcision...
Leviticus and Deuteronomy give the Kosher laws, but they also give sanitation law, cleanliness laws, as well as rules for worship like sacrifices...

Yeah - the Jews really had their shit together - like circumcision - a procedure that severely damages penile function (although circumcised men don't know it - heck, most intact men don't even know what the foreskin does, so what chance do circumcised men have?) and vastly increases the potential for infection, even in a modern hospital environment - has anything to do with sanitation and cleanliness. But heck, the Jews do it, so it must have had a reason - it couldn't just be because some influential 5th Century BC sexual deviant nutcase priest decided that cutting off babys' genitals was 'holy law'.

Over a Billion Muslims practice circumcision sometimes in very different conditions ranging from the most primitive to the most modern hospitals but I have not seen any massive infection problems striking their male population. I also remember the graphic scene early in the book ROOTS where Kunta Kinte was circumcised as a right of passage into adulthood as a teen in sub-sahara Africa. If you take the world population as a whole through recorded history Circumcision has probably been practiced on a quarter of the male population.

The oldest documentary evidence for circumcision comes from ancient Egypt.[6] Circumcision was common, although not universal, among ancient Semitic peoples.[7] In the aftermath of the conquests of Alexander the Great, however, Greek dislike of circumcision (they regarded a man as truly "naked" only if his prepuce was retracted) led to a decline in its incidence among many peoples that had previously practiced it.[8]

Circumcision has ancient roots among several ethnic groups in sub-equatorial Africa, and is still performed on adolescent boys to symbolize their transition to warrior status or adulthood.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... rcumcision


Looks like you were right, it wasn't just some deviant 5 century BC authority figure in one place, it is in a lot of cultures all over the place.