[Plantagenet]

I pointed out that real socialist countries do build high speed rail.

????

Actually, no. The High Speed Rail networks in Japan and the EU are in CAPITALIST countries.

You don't seem to know what the word "socialism" means.

The USA has no high-speed rail. Your assertion that liberals/socialists in the US prevent high-speed rail is looney-tune quality thinking. Bizarre. Way off the map. Under the stairwell. behind the wood-shed. skanky.

I didn't say "liberals/socialists in the US prevent HSR. You are having a senior moment, I'm afraid.

Look---face facts. Your assertion that socialist countries built high-speed rail is, to use your own words, looney-tune quality thinking. Bizarre. Way off the map. Under the stairwell. behind the wood-shed. skanky. The only way to build HSR is to have highly profitable private business and a robust economy. The EU boomed in the 90s and the EU build HSR. HSR is expensive----you've got to tax the heck out of private business to build it like the EU did.

Having said that, one of the main reasons to build HSR is that it would help the US economy --- and the US has a CAPITALIST economy. People would get jobs building the trains and rail network. Other people would get jobs running the trains. Downtown businesses and hotels would do better with trains delivering people to their businesses. More people would get out of their cars and into mass transit. Corporations like GE and Marriot and Steelmakers and High Tech builders of control systems would all make money.

HSR would be a CAPITALIST bonanza for the 21st century! It would stimulate the US economy just like the 20th century Eisenhower freeway system, that helped grow the US economy through the 50s and 60s.

[Plantagenet]

Socialist governments in France, Italy, etc. have built high-speed trains.

France, Italy, etc. are not socialist countries. They are capitalist countries. You need to turn off the TV and start traveling so you learn a bit about the world.

The wonderful high speed rail systems in the EU have been built by all the political parties in the EU----from socialist to christian democrat to what have you----. France has alternated socialist and Gaullist goverments---they all built HSR. Italy has been run by conservative parties for much of the last 20 years, and they built the HSR there. The HSR rail being build right now in Spain is being built by a conservative party.

The world isn't a TV show where one group wears white hats and another group wears black hats, and the people in white hats are always virtuous and good, Peter. It might seem that way on TV, but things are bit more complicated then that when you actually travel and learn how things work in the EU and in the rest of the world.

[Plantagenet]

US Republicans have always voted against public transport, of any kind.

I guess. Just like US Democrats always say they are in favor of public transport but somehow it just isn't important enough for them to actually fund it.

The fact is neither the Ds or the Rs has built any HSR in the US. And neither have the socialists.

-----------------------------------

Personally, I don't care if Rs or Ds or socialists or illegal aliens or private business builds HSR in the HSR. I just hope it gets built.

Lets face facts---a HSR system is going to get built in the US in the same way the Eisenhower interstate system got built. A case is going to have to be made that is would help the US economy, help US private business, and maybe even help US defense planning. We had a shot at building HSR when O and the Ds swept into office in 2008, but their promises turned out to be lies and they failed to act. Rather then building HSR O and the Ds spent billions bailing out GM and Chrysler (and then they gave Chrysler to Fiat).

I think O and the Ds took the wrong approach. We need HSR a heck of a lot more then we need legacy car companies that are just going to go bankrupt again the next time oil lurches up in price another $40.

[yellowcanoe]

The wonderful high speed rail systems in the EU have been built by all the political parties in the EU----from socialist to christian democrat to what have you----. France has alternated socialist and Gaullist goverments---they all built HSR. Italy has been run by conservative parties for much of the last 20 years, and they built the HSR there. The HSR rail being build right now in Spain is being built by a conservative party.

I love trains and would certainly enjoy traveling on a high speed train. My son, who inherited the "trains" gene from me spends at least one day a week working on projects at the local railroad society. However, as we head into a future where our economy is more likely to start shrinking than continuing to grow, I regard widespread deployment of high speed rail as something that would be far too expensive. There are lots of things we need to build as we move away from our dependence on oil and high speed rail won't be of high enough priority to justify the allocation of scarce resources. It would be like trying to buy champagne on a beer budget. We need a simpler, cheaper solution. One idea would be to bring back the electric, interurban concept again. Not very sexy, but much easier and cheaper to deploy than high speed rail.

[Plantagenet]

I regard widespread deployment of high speed rail as something that would be far too expensive. There are lots of things we need to build as we move away from our dependence on oil and high speed rail won't be of high enough priority to justify the allocation of scarce resources.

HSR is targeted precisely at moving us away from our dependence on oil. The trains are a modern mass transit system that runs on electricity.

We need a simpler, cheaper solution. One idea would be to bring back the electric, interurban concept again. Not very sexy, but much easier and cheaper to deploy than high speed rail.

We need both. We need HSR for intercity travel, and cheap electric trams for travel in the cities. Europe has shown us how to do this. Every city in Europe now has wonderful electric tram networks. And more HSR gets built every year to connect the cities.

The goal is to get people out of their cars and into mass transit.

[yellowcanoe]

We need HSR for intercity travel, and cheap electric trams for travel in the cities. Europe has shown us how to do this. Every city in Europe now has wonderful electric tram networks.

It certainly was a mistake for North American cities to get rid of their electric tram networks. What we have now are cities trying to build light rail systems. These are only viable where there is a high volume of traffic and they are quite expensive to build. We have one light rail line operating here in Ottawa but it is diesel powered and only single tracked (except for a couple of passing sections at stations). Our first electric, double tracked line is under construction now but most of the money for that project is being spent on building a tunnel through the downtown area.

[Plantagenet]

It certainly was a mistake for North American cities to get rid of their electric tram networks. What we have now are cities trying to build light rail systems.... We have one light rail line operating here in Ottawa but it is diesel powered and only single tracked (except for a couple of passing sections at stations). Our first electric, double tracked line is under construction now but most of the money for that project is being spent on building a tunnel through the downtown area.

I agree completely.

Good luck on getting your 1st electric light rail system done---you're going to love it.


What the world needs now
Is love sweet love
Thats the only thing
That theres just too little of
Except HSR and electric trams.

[Newfie]

Plant,

I've sent my whole career working on transit. You are totally full of stuff when it come to HSR.

Try listening to Yellow and Pstar, they are on the right track.

[Plantagenet]

Plant,

I've sent my whole career working on transit. You are totally full of stuff when it come to HSR.

Newfie,

I've spent quite a bit of time travelling and riding on HSR in Europe, Japan, and China . I'm just back from a trip to France where I took 3 trips on HSR---Paris to Avignon, Avignon to Nice, and Nice back to Paris. It was fabulous. HSR and more electric Trams would definitely help the NE cut its CO2 emissions. You are totally full of stuff when it comes to HSR.

[yellowcanoe]

I've spent quite a bit of time travelling and riding on HSR in Europe, Japan, and China . I'm just back from a trip to France where I took 3 trips on HSR---Paris to Avignon, Avignon to Nice, and Nice back to Paris. It was fabulous. HSR and more electric Trams would definitely help the NE cut its CO2 emissions. You are totally full of stuff when it comes to HSR.

I suggest you read this article http://peakoil.com/consumption/high-spe ... ay-network which was a news item on PO in December.

[Plantagenet]

I've spent quite a bit of time travelling and riding on HSR in Europe, Japan, and China . I'm just back from a trip to France where I took 3 trips on HSR---Paris to Avignon, Avignon to Nice, and Nice back to Paris. It was fabulous. HSR and more electric Trams would definitely help the NE cut its CO2 emissions. You are totally full of stuff when it comes to HSR.

I suggest you read this article http://peakoil.com/consumption/high-spe ... ay-network which was a news item on PO in December.

Yes?

I read it. Its really not relevant to the US. The author is saying that new high speed trains in Europe aren't all that much faster then the trains they replace. But the US isn't Europe. Our train system is pathetic.

HSR would be MUCH faster then current US trains. It would be a HUGE improvement over current US rail service.

[Newfie]

Plant,

I just don't know how to talk to you man. It seems you have all the answers and are convinced of your point of view.

con·ver·sa·tion
ˌkänvərˈsāSHən/
noun
1.
the informal exchange of ideas by spoken words.
"the two men were deep in conversation"
synonyms: discussion, talk, chat, gossip, tête-à-tête, heart-to-heart, exchange, dialogue; More
an instance of this.
"she picked up the phone and held a conversation in French"

pon·tif·i·cate (pŏn-tĭf′ĭ-kĭt, -kāt′)
n.
The office or term of office of a pontiff.
intr.v. (-kāt′) pon·tif·i·cat·ed, pon·tif·i·cat·ing, pon·tif·i·cates
1. To express opinions or judgments in a dogmatic way.
2. To administer the office of a pontiff.

[Newfie]

Plant,

You are right that the US is not Europe and that our long distance train service pathetic.

None of that explains how or why HSR could work in the US.

If there was a capitalist reason for its existence, then I suppose the market would have driven it.

HSR has been more generally promoted in socialist countries such as France and Spain or in highly authoritarian countries such as China and India. It can exist in those areas simply because they are in some central planning, big government mode.

I get that you rode HSR and liked the experience. I can understand that.

How, exactly, do you think it will solve any of our current problems?

[Plantagenet]

Newfie---I'm surprised that you'd say you don't know how to have a conversation with me.

It seems to me that you are doing quite well.

Don't sell yourself short---IMHO you're an excellent conversationalist!

[Plantagenet]

Clearly rail in the EU is BETTER than the rail system in the USA.

I don't think anyone with an honest bone in their body would deny that.

So what is wrong with wanting the US to upgrade our rail system to something like the better system in the EU.

Isn't that just common sense?