[Plantagenet]

Godwin's Law.

Godwin's law is an internet meme that says that people who constantly call other posters fascists and Hitler are ridiculous trolls.

Godwin's law doesn't apply to an actual dictator like Putin who is actually sending goose stepping storm troopers to actually invade another country on the pretext that they are rescuing their ethnic brethren who actually aren't in any danger.

Putin uses 76th storm trooper brigade to begin takeover of Crimea

The many similarities betweens Putin's actions in the Crimea and Hitler's 1938 takeover over the Sudentenland are striking.

[dissident]

Putin is a narcissistic tyrant. But in a world where fast, easy communication is becoming the greatest enemy of such despots, tin-horn or oil-fueled, I rate him a dangerous guy.

But, I'd give about a 1% chance of us going to war with Russia over Ukraine.

CNN told you, so it must be so.

This is why there are wars. Sanctimonious do gooders who always give themselves moral authority by believing lies.

When CNN and the rest of the goosestepping western media starts quoting opinion polls in Russia then it may get some credibility.

[Strummer]

The many similarities betweens Putin's actions in the Crimea and Hitler's 1938 takeover over the Sudentenland are striking.

There are no similarities. Czechoslovakia was a stable country at the time, Ukraine today is a lawless mess without a legitimate government, ruled by self-appointed thugs.

[Sixstrings]

The Russian Federation Council has ratified the movement of the army units. No decision regarding the movement has been made yet by Putin himself. According to Peskov, Putin's press secretary, Putin's potential decision is conditional on the way the situation develops.

The topic's name is flawed, as it has already been pointed out.

Well at least you recognize there's Russian troops controlling Crimea right now, and these aren't "mysterious masked men" and nobody knows where they came from, maybe Mars.

Yesterday you were saying you don't know if there's an invasion. So, we're makin' progress!

Although you STILL say "movement." Just "movement" of troops. Is surrounding Ukrainian border guards just "movement." Is seizing airports just "movement." Is blocking a road to an airport just "movement." How about surrounding the TV station with machine gun positions and scaring the Tatars who all rushed to their TV station -- is that just movement? And cutting off phones and internet for all Crimeans, is that just "movement?"

I like you Radon and people want to love Russians, but it's just hilarious how Russians get so far into technicalities with US, but when it comes to YOU, your unilateral invasions are just "troops moving" and "within the framework of our lease." Mmmhm. Meanwhile the soldiers wear masks and no flags, yet a pretty CNN journalist asks a "masked gunman" where he's from and he says "Russia."

Radon, let's hope what I said last night was right: that after escalating and things getting Serious Business that Russia's diplomats will just come to the table and tell us what they want. And work something out. Russia has lost Ukraine so that ain't gonna happen. But they could get Crimea out of this -- at the cost of damaged international relations, but that's Putin's calculation to make.

Incidentally, there's been a lot of talk about West Ukrainian "hoodlums." So now we see this in Crimea:


Clutching wooden batons and Russia flags, demonstrators shouted and chanted as they clashed with anti-Putin protesters


Clash: At least 5,000 Pro-Putin protesters have taken to the streets of Dontesk marching to parliament


Attacks: Supporters of Russia smashed into this regional government building in the Kharkiv protests today

You know, we're all having this troll battle on a internet forum but the sad thing is that this is really tragic and horrible -- and PUTIN is acting like a troll, doing it for real. KIDS are getting into these West vs. Russia clashes. Putin has STOKED all of this, without Russian meddling Ukraine would have just had its orange revolution and new elections. F*ck's sake, the EU and Obama are wet noodles, Putin could have rattled sabres in some other way and worked something out to avoid so many getting hurt in Ukraine:


Wounded protesters: Pro-European activists were bloodied today after clashes with activists who favour closer ties with Russia


Threatening: This heavily-armed soldier keeps watch in Simferopol, Crimea


'Invasion': These troops, amassed outside the Crimean town of Balaclava, have been decried by the Ukrainian government as an occupying force


Families, friends and other members of the public cried and clutched candles as clashes continue across the country
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -guns.html

[radon1]

Well at least you recognize there's Russian troops controlling Crimea right now, and these aren't "mysterious masked men" and nobody knows where they came from, maybe Mars.

Yesterday you were saying you don't know if there's an invasion. So, we're makin' progress!

No, I still do not know whether there is an invasion, though it looks like it is highly likely that servicemen or contractors from Russia are in Crimea. I do not know why you are trying to put words in my mouth.

but when it comes to YOU, your unilateral invasions are just "troops moving"[/b] and "within the framework of our lease."

You are fantasizing, perhaps desperately seeking a forum villain. This has nothing to do with my posts.

Wounded protesters: Pro-European activists were bloodied today after clashes with activists who favour closer ties with Russia

You have no idea what really happened there. Apparently, your spin-doctor sources again turned the story upside down.

[Sixstrings]

No, I still do not know whether there is an invasion, though it looks like it is highly likely that servicemen or contractors from Russia are in Crimea. I do not know why you are trying to put words in my mouth.

A distinction without a difference.

You are fantasizing, perhaps desperately seeking a forum villain. This has nothing to do with my posts.

When I say "YOU" I mean your side of this. But I'm sorry, you've actually been down the middle. What I'm talking about is posts from dissident and others and how Russians get so technical about holding the US to international law, and now look at Russia's illegal unilateral military action and all this nonsense about "masked gunmen" they aren't responsible for just because they are contractors from Russia's "blackwater."

UN sec general's spokesman just spoke. He actually sounded tough business about Russia. "Ukraine's sovereignty and integrity must be respected." Something that hasn't been thought about here, that Putin may not have considered -- nations around the world may not like to see this just on principle and precedent. China could side against Russia on this.

[radon1]

No, I still do not know whether there is an invasion, though it looks like it is highly likely that servicemen or contractors from Russia are in Crimea. I do not know why you are trying to put words in my mouth.

A distinction without a difference.

Fundamental difference.

As usual, you call the things the way you want them to be. "Revolution", "invasion" etc. It does not necessarily mean that they are such.

[radon1]

Godwin's law doesn't apply to

How do you know?

[Pops]

CNN told you, so it must be so.

This is why there are wars. Sanctimonious do gooders who always give themselves moral authority by believing lies.

When CNN and the rest of the goosestepping western media starts quoting opinion polls in Russia then it may get some credibility.

Not sure what CNN said or really what you're saying, am I the sanctimonious do-gooder?

LOL, personally I couldn't care less about Russia.

But here is some Russian opinion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... n_protests
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 38481.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18405306
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/d ... urope-news
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-anti-pu ... 39300.html:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... putin.html
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/1 ... USSIA.html

[radon1]

The US and Britain are bound by treaty to defend Ukraine from Russian invasion.

US bound by treaty to defend Ukraine

When the Ukraine surrendered its nukes after the break-up of the USSR, the US guaranteed Ukraine territorial integrity as a way to get Ukraine to go along with disarmament. Bill Clinton signed the treaty for the US and committed the US to defend Ukraine in 1994.

What to do? Perhaps we can just pretend this treaty doesn't exist, just O pretended Russian troops weren't already seizing the Crimea yesterday when he warned Russia not to seize the Crimea.

The US troops have already been on the Ukrainian territory for quite a while already. You revolutionaries have even posted about it already in your post-Maidan revolutionary zeal a while ago, if I am not mistaken. Therefore, perhaps technically Russia is bound to defend the Ukrainian territorial integrity under this treaty from the US invasion, so it is surprising that Russia has not taken any measures to that effect so far.

[radon1]

China could side against Russia on this.

That's not impossible, given that China wants Crimea for themselves.

[Sixstrings]

The US troops have already been on the Ukrainian territory for quite a while already. You revolutionaries have even posted about it already in your post-Maidan revolutionary zeal a while ago, if I am not mistaken.

I posted that if Russia came in from the east, then NATO should come in from the West. But that is NOT what happened. Russia has come in from the south, with just about its entire military up on the eastern border.

No American or NATO troops have been in Ukraine through this whole thing. So please explain what you mean? "US troops have already been on the Ukrainian territory"

John McCain gave a speech at the Maidan, that's all I know about. Diplomats are not military. Russia sent its parliamentarians down to Crimea too -- that's ok. What counts as military are Apocalypse Now air cav streaming over the border, armored personnel carriers, and soldiers patrolling with machine guns.

Therefore, perhaps technically Russia is bound to defend the Ukrainian territorial integrity under this treaty from the US invasion, so it is surprising that Russia has not taken any measures to that effect so far.

What US invasion? The mystery men "masked gunmen" with such good professional army gear are NOT Americans. They speak Russian and say they are from Russia.

About the treaty -- RUSSIA is legally obliged too, to protect Ukrainian territorial integrity. None of the signatory parties -- UK, US, France, or Russia -- are supposed to go in and grab a chunk and keep it.

Anyhow.. what Putin has done here is blatantly illegal under international law. Even though the US hasn't been leading and O is totally uninterested, I actually think the rest of the world will step into our leadership void and tell Russia "uh, no, you cannot just go and take a chunk of land."

The whole thing is really stunning. Russia did South Ossetia and Georgia more carefully. There was not even a pretense this time, Putin didn't even bother to stir things up for a while and make a cassus belli that Russians are threatened and he's got to save them.

[AndyA]

Russia is a rogue state violating international law and invading people

Right, so the US is allowed to 'invade people' but no one else is? Americans have been using their military to get their own way, install govt's et al for years. Whats the big deal? I'm no fan of Russia but America is the home of the hypocrite.

[dissident]

CNN told you, so it must be so.

This is why there are wars. Sanctimonious do gooders who always give themselves moral authority by believing lies.

When CNN and the rest of the goosestepping western media starts quoting opinion polls in Russia then it may get some credibility.

Not sure what CNN said or really what you're saying, am I the sanctimonious do-gooder?

LOL, personally I couldn't care less about Russia.

But here is some Russian opinion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80 ... n_protests
http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 38481.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18405306
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/d ... urope-news
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-anti-pu ... 39300.html:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... putin.html
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/1 ... USSIA.html

Funny. Circular citation of biased western sources who do not quote any opinion polls in Russia. An elected tyrant? At least in Russia there is more than two names on the presidential ballot. Meanwhile in the two-party USA Ralph Nader gets blocked off the ballot by local Democrat-Republican electoral committees. Take your wanking sanctimony and shove it.

Obscene how some American where OWS protestors were rounded up everywhere they tried to demonstrate tries to claim some moral high ground when some Russian neo-liberals (who poll around 15%) get rounded up for blocking major traffic intersections. You do know that demonstrations require permits in the USA, don't you? Or do you think that impromptu mob disruptions of public order are allowed to proceed without interference in the USA? BTW, the so-called opposition (the 15%) were allowed to stage demonstrations when they bothered to apply for permits. So your links actually don't prove squat.

[radon1]

No American or NATO troops have been in Ukraine through this whole thing.

There were reports of American marines arriving to Kiev, allegedly, or ostensibly, to protect the US Embassy.

[Sixstrings]

There were reports of American marines arriving to Kiev, allegedly, or ostensibly, to protect the US Embassy.

Oh, for Pete's sake. I give up.

I'm actually a bit worried here. I think the the world is really going to turn on Putin, on this one. So how will he react to that. Please tell me he's not crazy and he'd never push "the button."

Maybe it's good we've got Obama in charge. We don't want to push Russians over the edge. There's some really crazy Russian things making the news on CNN now, like Putin's biker gang that got sent into Crimea. When I actually *see* this on CNN, it hits home, this sh*t is nuts.

US should sit back and let the rest of world handle this one, confront Russia together. If it was all American-Russian escalation and tit for tat then I'm actually worried Putin would go right over the edge. But Russia CAN'T defy the *whole world*.

EDIT: security council meeting is on CNN now. Ukraine and Russia will speak. We'll see if there are any banging shoes on the table.

I'm a little worried, the Russian ambassador seems irrational from the CNN reporting, he didn't want this meeting aired in public, but now it's gonna be. If the Russians sound sane then I'll feel better. If they sound delusional and hostile then that's concerning. We'll see, grab your popcorn.

Seriously, I'm a bit worried, Russians painted themselves into a box with this "unknown masked men" thing. It's bizarre, and irrational, and concerning because it makes no sense, they're going to look like fools in this UN meeting.

[Strummer]

There were reports of American marines arriving to Kiev, allegedly, or ostensibly, to protect the US Embassy.

Oh, for Pete's sake. I give up.

I'm actually a bit worried here. I think the the world is really going to turn on Putin, on this one. So how will he react to that. Please tell me he's not crazy and he'd never push "the button."

Maybe it's good we've got Obama in charge. We don't want to push Russians over the edge. There's some really crazy Russian things making the news on CNN now, like Putin's biker gang that got sent into Crimea. When I actually *see* this on CNN, it hits home, this sh*t is nuts.

US should sit back and let the rest of world handle this one, confront Russia together. If it was all American-Russian escalation and tit for tat then I'm actually worried Putin would go right over the edge. But Russia CAN'T defy the *whole world*.

A gang of bikers. Wow, now there's a threat to world peace. Bush and Obama invading countries and killing hundreds of thousands innocent people, launching drone attacks on weddings and overthrowing legitimate governments is perfectly fine I guess, but god forbid Putin sends a gang of bikers!

[radon1]

A press-release link re a previous post:

Spokesperson: Putin makes no decision on use of Russian army in Ukraine yet

Russia
March 01, 21:54 UTC+4

Earlier in the day, the Federation Council gave the green light to the use of the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine pending normalisation of the situation in that neighbouring country

MOSCOW, March 01, /ITAR-TASS/. President Vladimir Putin has not yet made any decision on the use of the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine, presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Vesti v Subbotu television programme on Saturday, March 1.

“Now that the Federation Council [upper house of parliament] adopted the relevant decision, the president has received the full array of means needed for settling the situation both in terms of using troops and in terms of making a decision on the head of our diplomatic mission in the United States,” Peskov said.

But “the president has not yet made either decision. He will make these decisions depending on how the situation evolves. “We would like to hope that the situation will not develop the way it has been developing up to date - escalation and threat to the Russian-speaking population in Crimea,” the spokesperson said.

Earlier in the day, the Federation Council gave the green light to the use of the Russian Armed Forces in Ukraine pending normalisation of the situation in that neighbouring country.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/721602

[Sixstrings]

OMG, I'm watching this, russian ambassador is sounding aggressive and *crazy*.

[dolanbaker]

This whole situation must be getting a lot of people on-line, possibly the US internet is getting congested. I'm finding that this site is taking a lot longer to load at the moment. My local (Irish) sites are as fast as usual.