[Plantagenet]

Maybe it's good we've got Obama in charge. We don't want to push Russians over the edge.

Good idea. Let Putin have the Sudentenland Crimea.

Maybe if we appease him now Putin will be happy and never invade anybody else and we will have peace for our time.


"I have a pen and a phone I've just called Mr. Hitler Putin, and we have signed an agreement giving him the Crimea and any other part of the Ukraine he wants. I bring you peace for our time"

[AndyA]

Or he could attack Russia and give us war in our time.

[Rod_Cloutier]

2014ultimatum.jpg

Seriously guys and gals, do we want WWIII this week?

Got to remember Russia has a full arsenal of thermonuclear weapons aimed our way. Mutually assured destruction. Really peace is the only way.

[dolanbaker]

Maybe it's good we've got Obama in charge. We don't want to push Russians over the edge.

Good idea. Let Putin have the Sudentenland Crimea.

Maybe if we appease him now Putin will be happy and never invade anybody else and we will have peace for our time.


"I have a pen and a phone I've just called Mr. Hitler Putin, and we have signed an agreement giving him the Crimea and any other part of the Ukraine he wants. I bring you peace for our time"

It's easy to forget that the old Russian empire used to go as far west as the German boarder and as far south east as Bulgaria.

Many Russians would like to see the clock turned back, especially those who ended up in "foreign" places.

[Plantagenet]

It's easy to forget that the old Russian empire used to go as far west as the German boarder and as far south east as Bulgaria.

Many Russians would like to see the clock turned back, especially those who ended up in "foreign" places.

Recovering the lands formerly held by the USSR is probably more the model for Putin and his ilk than the Russian empire.

You are definitely right---Putin and the National Bolsheviks and many others in Russia want Russia to regain lost territory.

[Sixstrings]

but god forbid Putin sends a gang of bikers!

It's just weird, Strumm. It's like "mad max" science fiction doomsday movie *weird*. All these pictures coming out of Ukraine, this whole situation over there, it's so *weird* and like a movie and nobody's ever seen anything like it.

It's all very odd. In some ways the new Russia seems less advanced than the latter USSR. So odd. It's like the Russian leadership are forum trolls, you know? Foreign policy based on pride and feelings and emotion. Wtf. That's okay for internet memes and forum hot air but this is dangerous, at these levels, president of russia and UN ambassador.

If Russian leadership has ever gone *nuts* then that's something we need to know. #1 concern has always been their nuke stockpile, and the security of that, and that whoever is in charge is rational. That remains the #1 concern about Russia, so long as they have those nukes.

You are definitely right---Putin and the National Bolsheviks and many others in Russia want Russia to regain lost territory.

I heard someone on FoxNews get it right. He said "Look, Russians just got to be Russians. This is how they are." (meaning empire)

[Sixstrings]

CNN told you, so it must be so.

CNN is finally covering this Ukraine thing. Constant coverage, all day today. So we're in it now. Congrats Russia, you got the news cycle started over here and that won't let up until there's an end to it.

I'm glad CNN is on it, for the info, they are actually very balanced to both sides.

One thing I notice is that the mainstream is way behind the curve of where everyone else is, who's been following this on the internet. Apparently the Obama admin has been too, and our elites (bit of a scary thought there, they should be ahead of the curve of us).

Got to remember Russia has a full arsenal of thermonuclear weapons aimed our way. Mutually assured destruction. Really peace is the only way.

Mmmhm. My understanding is that both sides detargeted each other quite a few years ago? If Putin ever retargets then that's a big escalation with the US. (would we even know if he does?) And I assume these things can be reset within 30 minutes or so.

Putin is looking for base access around the world. For ships and bombers. Including Havana. Would there be strategic bombers in Havana again and we're back in 1962?

[Plantagenet]

One thing I notice is that the mainstream is way behind the curve of where everyone else is, who's been following this on the internet. Apparently the Obama admin has been too....

Yup.

Apparently O skipped the National Security meeting on Ukraine this morning, so at least he's got an excuse for not being up-to-date on events in Ukraine.

O skips National Security meeting on Russia vs. Ukraine

If O isn't even going to bother to go to the meetings about Ukraine, then it can't be a very high priority item for him. I guess this is just another garden variety war of aggression by Russia in eastern Europe---no big deal.

[Sixstrings]

Good idea. Let Putin have the Sudentenland Crimea.

Plant, here's the thing. What we never faced with Russia before was a leader who may actually be crazy. And never bend. I'm not so sure Putin would back down in a cuban missile crisis scenario, as Kurshchev did. Putin's that "kid with a match and can of gas," just daring us to push him.

I'd be a bit worried about cold war again, this time around -- the new Russia isn't the Soviet Union. The new Russia is a kelptocracy for Putin and his associates to steal from the Russian people. It's like a mafia state.

Corruption is everywhere. They don't have control. We could wake up any day to read about hundreds of thousands protesting in Russia and suddenly everything is very unstable.

Radon and Disident have both told us that the rest of Russian politics is even worse and far scarier than Putin.

If Putin is smart enough to know our achilles heal -- that we're actually NOT apocalyptic and would always back down to a crazy Russia willing to push it -- if he knows that, or if a future Russian leader knows it, then that's very dangerous for us.

Hitler didn't have nuke ICBMs. Putin does.

[Sixstrings]

Or he could attack Russia and give us war in our time.

We're eventually going to have to face off against each other. If not now, then in the future, over arctic oil and that northwest passage. It's gonna happen. So do you stand up while you can and prevent the problem, or do you wait?

Conventional war is no worry. Nuclear war *IS*.

If not for the nuke problem, if I were in charge I'd say we need NATO troops in west ukraine right now. Or at least mass them up in Poland right on the border with Ukraine. After all, Russia has done the same -- its military is on Ukraine's east border with this paramilitary invasion of Crimea.

Shouldn't we be massed in Poland, too? Russians couldn't complain, that's a NATO country and we have a right to be there.

Alternatively, maybe that's not necessary and worldwide pressure will get Russia to compromise or leave Crimea.

Andy nobody wants war, but if you're dealing with a bully then at some point you do have to start standing up. There's other things we could do too -- just freezing Russian oligarch visas and their western assets would destabilize Russia in a flash. You'd see change really quick. It's all so tricky though, if we ever destabilize Russia then we're worried about the nukes they have.

[eastbay]

That's a hilarious picture of O over Neville Chamberlain, Plants. Funniest thing I've seen in a long time.

[Synapsid]

I'm curious. Can anyone tell me:

Has the Russian government said that they are in fact acting in Russia's capacity as a guarantor of the 1990 agreement?

[AndyA]

We're eventually going to have to face off against each other. If not now, then in the future, over arctic oil and that northwest passage. It's gonna happen. So do you stand up while you can and prevent the problem, or do you wait?

None of that shit concerns me, benefits me or harms me. It's just a pissing contest. Whats the point in killing a whole lot of people, and destroying a whole lot of shit?

but if you're dealing with a bully then at some point you do have to start standing up.

What is it that Russia is doing that is so bad? How does it compare say to dropping nukes on highly populated cities, invading Iraq or the rest in the long list of wars where the US has sent its superior military to kill and destroy? So far Russians havn't killed anyone, or bombed anything. A democratically elected government has been overthrown by rebels in the Ukraine, and somehow they are the good guys? WTF? The majority of the people did not vote for the rebels. Can you imagine how such rebels would be dealt with in the US?

[Plantagenet]

Plant, here's the thing. What we never faced with Russia before was a leader who may actually be crazy. And never bend. I'm not so sure Putin would back down in a cuban missile crisis scenario, as Kurshchev did.

I don't think Putin will back down either. Not because he's crazy --- he isn't. But Putin is tough and smart. Putin is betting that Obama will be the one to fold his cards and back down.

[Sixstrings]

I don't think Putin will back down either. Not because he's crazy --- he isn't. But Putin is tough and smart. Putin is betting that Obama will be the one to fold his cards and back down.

Okay.

If that's the case, then we need a happy warrior like Ronald Reagan, and put our trust in him and just keep calm and carry on and not back down to the Russians. Go full monty again, Star Wars (we actually got the tech for that now), whole nine yards, it worked before it can work again -- IF they aren't madmen over in Moscow.

That's always a concern, Plant. Did you know Boris Yeltsin was drunk and staring at the nuclear football with all the keys activated and the generals telling him protocol was full launch? This post-soviet Russia has always been dangerous. If they're unstable then we can't tangle with them.

Assuming you're right, then we need a Reagan, or a Kennedy. AT LEAST a Wesley Clark (been listening to him on TV, I'd trust him in charge, he's coolheaded yet knows what to do and is strong).

If this Russia sh*t keeps up and gets worse in the remainder of O's time in office, and if Republicans can run someone good for office, then I'd vote GOP. I'd vote for Romney right now, or McCain. At least Romney would have been *competent*. I heard Foxnews joke that Romney could have done Obamacare better AND handle Russia.

[radon1]

freezing Russian oligarch visas and their western assets would destabilize Russia in a flash.

Freezing Ukrainian's oligarchs assets might have been one of the triggers for Putin's move. That kind of act immediately transforms an oligarch into a diehard patriot.

[eastbay]

There's no such thing as a "Russian" oligarch. Putin therefore views them as disposable.

[dolanbaker]

Plant, here's the thing. What we never faced with Russia before was a leader who may actually be crazy. And never bend. I'm not so sure Putin would back down in a cuban missile crisis scenario, as Kurshchev did.

I don't think Putin will back down either. Not because he's crazy --- he isn't. But Putin is tough and smart. Putin is betting that Obama will be the one to fold his cards and back down.

[Keith_McClary]

It's just weird, Strumm. It's like "mad max" science fiction doomsday movie *weird*. All these pictures coming out of Ukraine, this whole situation over there, it's so *weird* and like a movie and nobody's ever seen anything like it.

It's all very odd.

Maybe the reason it seems weird is that it's been so thoroughly spun by your jingoistic MSM.

[dolanbaker]

All the signs are pointing to armed conflict!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26405635
Ukraine has ordered a full military mobilisation in response to Russia's build-up of its forces in Crimea.

Acting President Olexander Turchynov has ordered the closure of airspace to all non-civilian aircraft.

US President Barack Obama has called Russian troop deployments a "violation of Ukrainian sovereignty".

Ukraine has said it will seek the help of US and UK leaders in guaranteeing its security. Nato has called emergency talks to be held at 1200 GMT.

Several other measures were announced by Andriy Parubiy, chair of the national security and defence council of Ukraine:

The armed forces would be put on "full combat readiness".
Reserves to be mobilised and trained
Emergency headquarters to be set up
Increased security at key sites, including nuclear plants.

The BBC has seen what appear to be Russian troops digging trenches on the Crimean border.