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Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 15:00:32



Well, I certainly agree with almost everything he said. (edit: is your link messed up, where is the statement from the "russian left," Paul Mason is a british correspondant?)

He's right:

There are dangers, on both sides, of emotion and principle forcing events beyond the control of the main players – Putin, Obama, and an EU so disunited that it has to rely on the Polish foreign minister to display any kind of leadership.

Where we are right now is the result of a huge failure of diplomacy.

If we attribute that failure to the west – Nato, the UN, the EU – it is because Putin’s diplomacy is transparently based on force and injustice.

The jailing and later tactical pardoning of political opponents; the use of polonium to poison dissidents; the assassination of troublesome journalists – Putin has made no pretense of observing the rule of law.
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/russian-invasion-ukraine-push-west-economic-war/441


I'm glad to see they mention that polonium poisoning. That was outrageous. How the British layed down and just took that and sucked it up -- I will never, ever understand that. One thing is for sure about Americans -- Russians had better never try that over here. We flip the f*ck out about things like that.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 15:14:39

The Orange revolution was nearly 10 fucking years ago - after that they elected Yanu in free elections. Don't support the corrupt bastard but you are totally mislead.

Don't know what can be said, you just spout the propaganda you've been fed. The US representative is either stupid and naive or just stirring the shit. If things carry on like this we will have war in our time, but listening to your posts you'll probably be glad. As was said in the meeting - cool heads are needed!

Sixstrings wrote:
AndyA wrote:None of that shit concerns me, benefits me or harms me. It's just a pissing contest. Whats the point in killing a whole lot of people, and destroying a whole lot of shit?


I agree. Russia should have just let Ukraine have its orange revolution and kept its troops out of it. This whole thing started because Putin put pressure on Yanu to back out of the EU association deal and then the people took to the streets. Ukrainians fought for freedom and died, the thing had settled down, and now Russia starts it up again with its armed forces in the country.

As for pissing contests.. it actually does matter in the world that nations abide international law and it not become okay to just start rolling over borders and seizing land. That's very disruptive and its war and it's a lot of chaos in the world if that becomes okay.

How would such a world affect you, as an American (assuming you are)? Well, if we don't squash it soon then we'll wind up in a big war over it. We're bound by treaty to defend Japan and South Korea. What if in this post-Crimea paradigm, China now feels free to seize some Japanese islands. Or Taiwan (though that one's unlikely).

Andy, I know people aren't used to this kind of instability because we've known world peace for our whole lives, but it really would be bad if countries just start grabbing land and there's no international law anymore.

About the arctic.. you can say you don't care.. but what will Canada do, one day, if Russians just claim their arctic waters? If you do nothing then you're laying down to tyranny and surrendering.

What is it that Russia is doing that is so bad? How does it compare say to dropping nukes on highly populated cities, invading Iraq or the rest in the long list of wars where the US has sent its superior military to kill and destroy? So far Russians havn't killed anyone, or bombed anything.


SO FAR. Right. Wait until the first Russian soldier is shot at. Or the tatars rise up.. then Russia will bring the hammer down, Chechnya style.

A democratically elected government has been overthrown by rebels in the Ukraine, and somehow they are the good guys? WTF?


Okay so you're in the dove camp. Fair enough. We can just sit back for a few years and see if things with Russia get worse, but the bad precedent here is that if international law has broken down then China and others may make a move and that's a big big mess.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 15:24:55

Quinny wrote:As was said in the meeting - cool heads are needed!


This relationship with Russia is like a codependent relationship.

Why can't we Americans ever get to be the hotheads and everyone wrings their hands over us, "shhh don't upset the Americans, cool heads are needed." :roll:

We must stand up to Russian and Chinese bullying. Short of nuclear war, yes. But we must stand up.

Rather than "cool heads are needed" quotes in the UN enabling Putin, here's some other quotes I prefer:

"Peace through strength."
"Trust, but verify." -- Ronald Reagan
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 15:41:47

radon1 wrote:They are now saying in the news that the mobilization in Ukraine goes on, but that they only got 1.5% of the conscripts so far, people are avoiding the conscription, do not pick up the phones etc. But this is the Russian state tv (Kremlin propaganda).


I wouldn't blame Ukrainian conscripts for not answering the phone. 8O So far, looks like the Russian army is surrounding Ukrainian bases but not moving in. Commanders in the base say they will defend their positions and hope a compromise is reached soon:

Hundreds of gunmen surround military bases in Ukraine

Hundreds of Russian troops surrounded infantry bases in Ukraine’s Crimea region Sunday, military officials said, amid worsening tensions between the country’s interim leaders and Russia.

A convoy surrounding a base in Privolnoye included at least 13 troop vehicles each containing 30 soldiers and four armored vehicles with mounted machine guns. The vehicles have Russian license plates and the Ukrainian colonel in charge of the base, Sergei Storozhenko, told the Wall Street Journal that the troops are Russian.

"They say it is to guard us from any provocations," Storozhenko said, adding that he troops did not ask to enter the base or say how long they planned to stay.

The Ukrainian soldiers -- with clips in their weapons -- responded by positioning a tank at the base’s gate leaving the two sides in a standoff. But according to the report, the scene was peaceful and a priest was present to prevent conflict between the Ukrainian and Russian soldiers.

"We are ready to protect the grounds and our military equipment," Valery Boiko, a representative of the base commander, told Reuters. "We hope for a compromise to be reached, a decision, and as the commander has said, there will be no war."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/02/crimean-leader-claims-control-asks-russia-for-help-in-restoring-peace/
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:03:52

It's not your backyard, it's not Canada - it's actually got nothing to do with you. Why don't you just concentrate on your own country. You've enough problems there.

Sixstrings wrote:
Quinny wrote:As was said in the meeting - cool heads are needed!


This relationship with Russia is like a codependent relationship.

Why can't we Americans ever get to be the hotheads and everyone wrings their hands over us, "shhh don't upset the Americans, cool heads are needed." :roll:

We must stand up to Russian and Chinese bullying. Short of nuclear war, yes. But we must stand up.

Rather than "cool heads are needed" quotes in the UN enabling Putin, here's some other quotes I prefer:

"Peace through strength."
"Trust, but verify." -- Ronald Reagan
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby h2 » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:08:08

Orlov posted interesting set of observations from a Kiev guy, besides being a lot funnier and informed than the comments here in this thread, they sort of give the picture more clearly as well in terms of the real factions and politics going on, I think. One has to enjoy the slavic sense of humor and sarcasm about such a dismal situation.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/02/s ... raine.html

It's well worth the read. I'm not going to quote from it because the whole thing is worth reading.

Orlov seems to be following this a bit more closely than he usually does, since he is from Russia and has that expat interest in the homeland.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/03/r ... -kiev.html

The latest posting has a basic timeline, historical context, which is also interesting, and clarifying.

Both are worth reading top to bottom to not miss certain clarifications of more complex social and historical scenarios playing out.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:16:23

Quinny wrote:It's not your backyard, it's not Canada - it's actually got nothing to do with you. Why don't you just concentrate on your own country. You've enough problems there.


Where Canada goes, the US goes, and vice versa. Other than a single currency, Canada is as much linked in with us than any of the EU are to each other. The US *will* have to be involved in future arctic conflicts.

And this DOES matter to Americans because if we are weak and look clueless then next thing you know China has that "short, sharp war" with Japan they've been talking about and China takes those disputed islands.

We've also got a lot of Ukrainian Americans, and they want something done. They have family in Ukraine too, same as Russians do. There were a bunch of Ukrainian Americans protesting at the WH yesterday.

But anyhow.. yes the US isn't leading on this one.. so here is your chance, "rest of the world," let's see if you can solve it.

Can't find a link for the DC protest, but Ukrainian Americans have been protesting in the US:

Bay Area Ukrainians Urge U.S., World to Intervene With Russia

Protesters gathered outside the Russian consulate in San Francisco Saturday afternoon, opposing Russia's military intervention in Ukraine.

Yulia Zimmermann is a U.S. citizen who speaks Russian and immigrated from Ukraine.

"If you would read the history of Ukraine, just for 10 minutes, you would understand the pain of these people," she said. "Ukraine has never attacked anyone."

Dr. Lisa Shostakovich is a Ukrainian-born Russian citizen who now lives in the Bay Area.

"If [a] whole society [is] gonna let Putin do that too, it can lead to much conflict and basically a nightmare situation in the world."

Many of the protesters want the U.S. to intervene and even take military action if necessary.

"I don’t see if there is a peaceful resolution," protester Vadim Zaliva said. "I hope very much there would be. And we hope the United States government will support Ukrainian independence."

"We do not want war," Zimmermann said. "We are not against Russians. The only problem is the regime of Putin."
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/-Bay-Area-Ukrainians-Urge-US-World-to-Intervene-With-Russia-248069471.html
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:27:42

Luhansk Oblast Council doesn't recognize new Ukraine government
Kyiv Post
March 2, 20:20 p.m. -- The Luhansk Oblast Council doesn't recognize the legitimacy of Ukraine's new government, Kommersant.ua reports. The regional council "considers illegitimate all central executive branches of power because they were formed with violation of laws," reads the statement of the council. Also, the members support the holding of a referendum on federalization that would allow regional governments to ahve more autonomy. The memmbers called on the Verkhovna Rada "to declare Russian language a second state language in Ukraine, to take immediate measures to disarm all illegal armed groups and to cease politically motivated prosecutions of police and Berkut riot-control police units," according to the statement. The council also declares support for Oblast Council chairman Valery Holenko. -- Olena Goncharova
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:38:55

Image

11 Times Russian Leaders Condemned The Use Of Force Without U.N. Approval

1. Putin on Iraq in 2003: “The use of force abroad, according to existing international laws, can only be sanctioned by the United Nations. This is the international law.”

2. “I am convinced that it would be a grave error to be drawn into unilateral action, outside of international law,” he said.

3. “Everything that is done without the UN Security Council’s sanction cannot be recognized as fair or justified,” Putin said in 2003.

4. Russian Foreign Ministry’s spokesman Aleksandr Lukashevich has said: “Any unilateral use of force without the authorisation of the U.N. Security Council, no matter how ‘limited’ it is, will be a clear violation of international law.”

5. “Attempts to bypass the Security Council… create artificial groundless excuses for a military intervention,” Lukashevich said in August.

6. In April 2013, Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said that “it is unacceptable to use force in international relations.”

7. “The use of force without the approval of the United Nations Security Council is a very grave violation of international law,” Lavrov said in August.

8. Speaking in 2003, Lavrov said that a “U.S.-led invasion of Iraq” without U.N. support “would be a clear violation of international law.”

9. In a New York Times opinion piece published this summer, Putin reinforced the importance of the United Nations: “No one wants the United Nations to suffer the fate of the League of Nations, which collapsed because it lacked real leverage…”

10. “Force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council,” he continued in his op-ed.

11. “We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos.”
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/times-russia-condemned-the-use-of-force-without-un-approval
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 16:53:52

Sixstrings wrote:
11 Times Russian Leaders Condemned The Use Of Force Without U.N. Approval
But the US did it anyways.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 17:05:26

Oligarchs step in to save Ukraine’s sovereignty
Kyiv Post
With the threat from Russia’s military invasion, some of Ukraine's oligarchs are uniting to accept to accept top government posts in their home regions.

Igor Kolomoisky, the controversial billionaire owner of PrivatBank, was appointed to head Dnipropetrovsk Oblast and Serhiy Taruta, the owner of the Industrial Union of Donbass, is taking over the Donetsk Oblast administration. Acting President Olekandr Turchynov made the appointments on March 2.

Other oligarchs have been approached by government envoys with offers to take charge of other potentially troublesome regions since the rise of separatist sentiments in eastern and southern Ukraine, heated up by Russia's ongoing invasion of Crimea, which began on Feb. 27. Some of them have already refused the offers.

Ukraine's oligarchs, who own much of Ukraine’s industrial economy, have always exerted their influence on government, but running the government would give them more direct responsibilities and power.

Taking charge of the most troublesome regions is a precedent. Economy Minister Pavlo Sheremeta explains it quite simply: “The country is in danger.”

Ukraine's government hopes that by appointing some of the richest and most influential people as governors, they will have a chance to unite the nation.

Russian President Vladimir Putin “is hurriedly preparing a split of Ukraine. The participation of major businessmen under these extreme circumstances may help the fight against separatism,” said Oleksiy Haran, political scientist and professor at Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. “But if talking about reforms, this will not favor the reforms.”

Kolomoisky, whose wealth Korrespondent magazine puts at $3.5 billion, is a leader in the Jewish community in Dnipropetrovsk, which could dampen Kremlin propaganda that the EuroMaidan Revolution is an anti-Semitic movement.

His business interests include chemical production, finance, media, metallurgy, oil extraction and sports. News media reported that Kolomoisky had been providing financial support for the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform, Vitali Klitshcko’s liberal political party that holds 42 seats in parliament. However, Klitschko denied this repott.

Taruta, whose fortune is estimated at $730 million, was said by his close circle to realize that he has agreed to a “suicide mission” by agreeing to govern Donetsk, Ukraine’s most populous oblast with nearly 10 percent of the nation’s population of 45 million people.

“I have never wanted to work within state executive power, but today, I am sure, on the day of danger I address the Ukrainian government and declare own readiness to head Donetsk Oblast State Administratoin,” he said in a March 1 statement.
...
The appointments were negotiated by Yuriy Lutsenko, the former interior minister and political prisoner, his spokeswoman Larysa Sargan said. Lutsenko added that Tymoshenko was participating in the negotiations too, "She called Kolomoisky, afterwards - Akhmetov and Taruta. She stressed that this was temporary decision. Not a real power, but rather a political symbol of Ukraine's unity."

Lutsenko also attempted to recruit billionaire philanthropist Viktor Pinchuk to head Zaporizhzhya Oblast’s government.

Pinchuk, also a native of Dnipropetrovsk in eastern Ukraine, turned down the offer because he “doesn't know the region, doesn't know anyone there and did not feel he was capable of achieving anything there,” one source familiar with negotiations told the Kyiv Post.

“Only if politicians and big business rise to this challenge will Ukrainians be able to channel their energy into reforming and rebuilding the country,” wrote Pinchuk in his Feb. 24 opinion piece for the Financial Times.
...
Since the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych as president on Feb. 22, speculation has increased over the prospect of reprivatizing assets owned by the largest businesspeople who purchased them from the state at rock-bottom prices under non-transparent auctions held by the State Property Fund.

Oleksandr Bondar, the former State Property Fund chairperson who is seen as a candidate to take this position again, publicly declared his support for reprivatizing some properties.

However, as long as oligarchs hold their seats in the government administrations, the chances of reprivatization are slim.

Editor's note: The story has been updated to include a quote from Yuriy Lutsenko.

Kyiv Post associate business editor Ivan Verstyuk and deputy chief editor Katya Gorchinskaya can be reached at [email protected] and [email protected]
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Loki » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 17:34:54

h2 wrote:Orlov posted interesting set of observations from a Kiev guy, besides being a lot funnier and informed than the comments here in this thread, they sort of give the picture more clearly as well in terms of the real factions and politics going on, I think. One has to enjoy the slavic sense of humor and sarcasm about such a dismal situation.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/02/s ... raine.html

It's well worth the read. I'm not going to quote from it because the whole thing is worth reading.

Orlov seems to be following this a bit more closely than he usually does, since he is from Russia and has that expat interest in the homeland.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/03/r ... -kiev.html

The latest posting has a basic timeline, historical context, which is also interesting, and clarifying.

Both are worth reading top to bottom to not miss certain clarifications of more complex social and historical scenarios playing out.

I stopped reading Orlov some time ago, his blog has become a low rent Pravda. He's an unabashed Russian nationalist, most of the posts boil down to: Russia = all things good, America = all things bad. Simple minded drivel. Too bad, his first book was quite good.

The last link you posted is just more of this crap, it starts with a list of unverifiable Russian propaganda. I didn't bother to read the rest.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Whitefang » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 17:50:04

If we ever lose democracy in our country and our fair vote, and our constitutional rights, then yes Ralfy at that point I'd shut up and say there's no difference and you may as well let Putin run roughshod and crack down on Georgians and Ukrainians and bully everyone and our president can kiss his ass all the time.

But that day has not arrived, democracy and human rights and decency are still alive in the world, and there is still a BIG DIFFERENCE between the West and Russian / Chinese totalitarianism. (I really don't even worry about the Chinese, they're responsible and want stability, they don't do this sh*t, but Putin is a really "dangerous guy" just as Pops said and he's got Russia on the move. We need to wake up.)


The self declared free west can never loose democracy since it has never been free, just an abundance of cheap energy and benefits for the workers, both male and females being taxed.
Our elites are waging war on us with private armies, they are all opposames, KGB Putin and gang were caught planting false flag bombs in appartments, just like our 911 and so many other dates and locations.
The west has been at war with Russia, China, Persia and then some since the end of last century, just not openly or very hot but it is past cold war tactics.

Sure you can vote, great!
Elites of both parties are identical, just like voting communist one party style.
My lowlands has over 25 groups to choose from but one management who control finance and war, who is in and who is out.
They are excellent at propaganda and genocide.
Petty little tyrants that should be left alone, they will die as we do.
Right now our princes Bilderberg is making a fortress of her house, just like our King and family.

The Ukraine spring is divide and conquer, to bring the downfall of any country, a strategy that works so well with the Middle East, Africa, America, parts of Asia and even Europe!
Create problem, armed gangs bombs riots and protests, then offer solution, financial help and industry, a puppy government under your control, works everytime.

Invading Middle East, Africa and all those stans for those poor schoolgirls, leave no one behind!
Preemptive attacks for what? Bearded Ali Baba and his dozens of robbers beating Pentagon with knives and high tech mobile cell phones from an undergroud network of caves in the desert?

Yes indeed, Kremlin cannot be bought or divided and they do oppose our dicators, just like our Chinese mobsters, Europe seems bound to be immersed in warfare idiocy, so many people and no more cheap energy or stable climate and food. 150 million people living in North Africa, 300 million greater ME, 300 million Eastern and 500 million mainland Europe, people will move northwest when the SHTF.
Just like SE Asia, a big trap of cities and collapse.

hard to foresee what will happen exactly but the eventual outcome is clear, end of easy life for humanity, BAU.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby h2 » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 21:48:23

Loki, you should try reading before commenting, had you done so, you would have found some interesting things, the first posting for example comes mainly from a guy in Kiev, who has little good to say about the Russians or the West. The problem with knee jerk reactions is, in cases like this, you might just be wrong. Or don't read, and don't comment, it's usually a mistake to comment on things you haven't read, since you haven't read them. Why not try reading it, then comment? Point out the errors, historical / cultural omissions, I'm open minded, or try to be. Or don't, and don't comment, up to you.

What's striking, had you read the stuff, is just how weird and totally convoluted the situation there is, and how mutated all the positions are, and how various views of looking at the situation, left, right, etc, aren't doing very well. Reminds me of Western leftists trying to make excuses for Chavez/Maduro in Venezuela no matter how out of control and surreal the situation gets there. IE, there is probably no 'good' side in this situation. Lots of bad ones though.

Granted orlov likes parts of his home country, that's fine, but he's also better informed about the stuff because of that interest. I was unable to find any russia apologies in there, the Kiev guy certainly exhibits no fondness for Russia, the EU, the USA, or the various groups bouncing around in the Ukraine now, but don't let that stop you from commenting on things you haven't read. Each to their own. I do realize the USA, in particular, has long fostered a sort of knee jerk anti Russia/USSR thing, so it's hard to know where forum posters are coming from in this context, someone who lives there and who is fairly smart and coherent I will generally be more interested in than random posters here. I certainly would not like to live in Russia, thug states just are not my thing, though the idea put forth in this thread that Putin is crazy is just kind of silly, he's a professional thug, and he's good at it, calling that crazy is just kind of odd,

So let me rephrase this, for all other forum readers EXCEPT Loki, take a read of those threads if you want an educated alternate view on the unfolding events. I've read Orlov for a while, and my feeling is he has long held Russian culture to be more able to withstand collapse than US culture, for some reasonably concrete reasons. What's kind of interesting about that view is that they did, withstand collapse, that is.

Some people I guess fly off into some rage when anything positive is said about certain countries or their cultures, particularly when the context is a fairly deep contempt for US culture, to me it's just interesting seeing what people who actually know the situation, the people, and the situation on the ground, and the history, etc, have to say, oddly, a bit more interesting than what people who have most likely never been there, and who are just trying to push the situation into some pre-existing ideological box think.

I have to admit I miss the oildrum.

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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby AndyA » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 22:42:11

Given the hysterics about international law it's obvious Puttin has gone about this the wrong way. He should have trumped up some wonky evidence, declared Ukraine to have WMD, formed a coalition of the willing, and THEN gone in gunz blazing.
International law hasn't meant shit all for the US, the precedent lies with the US, not Russia. Is flying over a country and bombing its citizens fine by international law? How many citizens in foreign countries has Odrone killed?
I'm not sure why people can't see how strange it is for the US to do what it wants re other sovereign nations, and then get hysterical when Russia moves troops into a former territory with a huge Russian population. Especially considering the country is in a violent revolution.
I'm sure Russia doesn't want to go to war for western Ukraine.
Gotta love the talk of sanctions, lol, who gets their oil from whom? The money is far less important then the oil, as if Russia couldn't handle a bit of deficit spending instead of a constant surplus.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby AndyA » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 22:52:58

Keith_McClary wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
11 Times Russian Leaders Condemned The Use Of Force Without U.N. Approval
But the US did it anyways.

Exactly, now the shoe is in the other mouth.
If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease. -Sen-ts'an
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 23:02:42

AndyA wrote:I'm sure Russia doesn't want to go to war for western Ukraine.


Why is that?

In their phone call talk on Saturday Putin told Obama he'd send troops all the way to Kiev to protect Russians.

Putin and the National Bolsheviks and other Russians all say they want to reconstitute the USSR. That means taking most or all of Ukraine.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby AndyA » Sun 02 Mar 2014, 23:49:08

Plantagenet wrote:
AndyA wrote:I'm sure Russia doesn't want to go to war for western Ukraine.


Why is that?

In their phone call talk on Saturday Putin told Obama he'd send troops all the way to Kiev to protect Russians.

Putin and the National Bolsheviks and other Russians all say they want to reconstitute the USSR. That means taking most or all of Ukraine.

That's the first I've heard of it. Maybe Putin is concerned about the neo Nazis threat to take Ukraine nuclear in 6 months. Or the violation of freedom by the new government banning pro Russian political parties and journalists.
George Carlin wrote:If fire fighters fight fire, and crime fighters fight crime. What do freedom fighters fight? They don't tell you that bit

As of now I havn't seen any official information that Russian troops are anywhere other then Crimea.
If you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease. -Sen-ts'an
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 03 Mar 2014, 00:01:23

AndyA wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
11 Times Russian Leaders Condemned The Use Of Force Without U.N. Approval
But the US did it anyways.

Exactly, now the shoe is in the other mouth.


Two wrongs don't make a right.

Enough of this -- we need troops massed in Poland, we must show strength, then negotiate with the Russians and we can both respect each other. Putin will not bow to sanctions. But Russians will compromise with a strong equal.
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Re: Russia recalls ambassador to US, Duma votes for war

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 03 Mar 2014, 00:10:52

G8 becomes the G7, Sochi meeting suspended:

Ukraine crisis: G7 condemns Russia military build-up
The world's seven major industrialised powers also suspended preparations for the G8 summit in Sochi in June.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26412914


Russian TV drumbeating for war, my comments in [brackets]. They're LYING about Turkish and NATO troops in Ukraine:

Image
Russian TV anchor Dmitry Kiselev is known for his anti-Western outbusts

Russian TV ratchets up rhetoric on Ukraine

Russian TV has been ratcheting up its belligerent rhetoric as fears grow of a full-blown military conflict with its neighbour Ukraine. Ukrainian TV, meanwhile, is full of foreboding.

Official Russian TV channel Rossiya 1 has given strong indications that further military action will follow after Moscow strengthened its armed forces' presence in Crimea and Russia's upper house of parliament unanimously voted to endorse Vladimir Putin's use of troops in Ukraine.

In a special edition of its flagship current-affairs programme Vesti Nedeli (News of the Week) on 2 March, controversial anchor Dmitry Kiselev was dismissive of Western threats of diplomatic isolation for Russia and of the new Ukrainian government's decision to mobilise its armed forces.

"I don't want to offend anyone, but the best that can said for the Ukrainian army is that there isn't one," Kiselev sneered.


"We don't give up our own"
Mr Kiselev is well known for his anti-Western and homophobic outbursts.

Framed against the background of massed Russian flags at a pro-Moscow demonstration in Crimea and the caption "We don't give up our own", Kiselev said that it was "impossible not to respond to this challenge".

"This is not even Syria, it is simply us," he declared.

"This is a personal matter for all of us. It is an historic moment, when our common energy is the key to victory," Mr Kiselev intoned.

"TV troops"
Rossiya 1 has further sought to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government by suggesting that Mr Yanukovych's overthrow was engineered with the help of "mercenaries" from the USA, UK, Germany and Turkey.

[so THAT'S WHERE RADON GOT THE TURKEY THING AND NATO TROOPS IN UKRAINE THING ^^^^^, good lord it's all lies :x ]

Independent media in Russia have questioned state TV's coverage of the Ukraine crisis.

Business daily Vedomosti noted the susceptibility of Russian people to "TV propaganda" and the idea of empire, but said that "behind the imperial propaganda there is no politics, economics or desire to support an empire".

Some leading Russian bloggers have expressed "shame" and disquiet about Russia's actions on Ukraine. But there is also evidence of a pro-Kremlin online mobilisation. The Russian hashtag "RussiaDoesn'tLeaveItsOwnBehind" has massed over 80,000 tweets.

[well we shouldn't be leaving our own behind either, democracy in west ukraine, and guess what Russians we don't wanna leave you behind either -- those of you that want democracy and human rights]

But on mainstream Ukrainian TV, the mood has been mainly sober and full of foreboding. ICTV called 1 March "alarming Saturday", while One Plus One TV declared it marked the start of the "Second Crimean War".
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26411396
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