[Keith_McClary]

Poland calls emergency NATO meeting to discuss Russian threat

SuperPowerHarperLand has also rattled it's mighty sword. Tremble in fear, Muskovite knaves.

[Sixstrings]

We're doing exactly what we should be doing. Isolating Putin economically will make him a pariah among the Russian oligarchs.

Fair enough, if the sanctions are tough and bite then okay.

OTOH.. it's a darn shame to make ordinary Russians suffer over this. Look at other sanctioned nations. Iraq, Iran, North Korea. It's the ordinary people who wind up suffering the most.

You're right that sanctions would destabilize Putin's regime, but, that's another catch-22 -- destabilizing Putin's regime and what he does and what comes out of that.

[Sixstrings]

What would you suggest we do? Send troops?

I suggest we do exactly what Putin is doing. We should have NATO doing exercises in Poland right now, showing American and NATO military might to our adversaries in the world -- just as Russia is, over the other side of the Ukraine border.

Lore, we should be doing just what Putin is doing, tit for tat, testing him as he tests us -- that's what Russia wants, and they're going to keep this up until they get it. Then we can both meet in the middle and negotiate from a position of demonstrated strength.

(i know im going all dr. strangelove, but there's got to be something we can do like back in the 1960s, to show strength and readyness short of war with Russia -- like the berlin airlift. We could be there for west ukraine, send supplies in, do *something*, Russia can't nuke us over that unless they're madmen ... and we MUST show some strength here, somehow, if you don't then the world forgets that and you've got Putin doing this then China next then Iran)

We're doing exactly what we should be doing. Isolating Putin economically will make him a pariah among the Russian oligarchs. Russia wants and needs to be a global economic power. This is not last century Cold War brinksmanship. Times have changed. He would love for us to engage in some type of military action to give him an excuse for his actions.

[Plantagenet]

I find it very funny that Obama and others keep saying that its not the 19th century anymore. OF COURSE its not the 19th century anymore.

Its the 21st century and Russia has just made a land grab. If Obama and his ilk weren't such ignorami they would've studied the 19th century and learned that Russia has a long history of biting off bits of territory from surrounding countries. Even more recently Russia seized part of Georgia. There is no excuse for the O administration to have been so completely surprised by the Russian invasion going on now.

Those who don't understand the past are doomed to repeat it

[Sixstrings]

SuperPowerHarperLand has also rattled it's mighty sword. Tremble in fear, Muskovite knaves.

I suspect Canada is on a tough-on-russsia track because of future issues in the arctic.

Anyhow, Canada's strength of words is at least something. Obama doesn't know wtf to do or say, at least Harper has conviction and competence. The only guts we have in this wet noodle NATO alliance are the Poles and Canadians.

[Keith_McClary]

Anyhow, Canada's strength of words is at least something.

Yah, if we could harvest wind power from Harper we really would be an energy superpower.

[dolanbaker]

The dust is settling! As nothing dramatic happened overnight there will now just be some negotiations to release trapped Ukrainian forces from the Crimea.

As each day passes, the chances of a shooting war decrease.

Maybe a small number of Russian regions of Ukraine will try to follow Crimea and request to be taken over. Depending on how imperialistic Putin is, he may not take any further action or just invade a couple of eastern regions of Ukraine (the Russian areas).

Barring a full scale war, the Crimea is now Russian.

[Quinny]

Sure you'll feel happier now

Sixstrings - brainwashed, yes you are.

I'm going to have to start voting Republican. I'm with Dems on domestic policy, but you cannot put foreign policy and the commander in chief position in liberal hands.

Iraq and Afghanistan were *nothing*. Seriously endangering our national security is a big deal, in comparrison -- to the point where China will feel emboldened to war on Japan. And God only knows what Iran will do. And look what Putin is doing.

[Quinny]

Dolan I hope this doesn't escalate any further, but fear the situation that's been created may prove much more difficult to entangle. Both sided in the Ukraine tend to take very entrenched positions, and there are large majorities in much of the East who tend to be pro-Russian. I can see this getting very messy.

[radon1]

Fair enough, if the sanctions are tough and bite then okay.

OTOH.. it's a darn shame to make ordinary Russians suffer over this. Look at other sanctioned nations. Iraq, Iran, North Korea.

Yeah, this is far more humane to bomb and kill them in order to free them from suffering in course of their mortal lives.

[radon1]

Well that's swell.. little mock Ukrainian villages they're blowing up in these exercises.. could the message be any clearer?

If NATO hold military drills in Poland, they will have a chance to build a row of Yanuk-type mansions and then blow them, to demonstrate to the world that they are going to blow people democratically in accordance with universal human values.

Putin might not have as much money after the Olympics so he has to go for the undemocratic option for the drills.

[radon1]

Fair enough, if the sanctions are tough and bite then okay.

Do you think that O and K will have enough skill to make sure that S&P crashes along with rouble?

[radon1]

As each day passes, the chances of a shooting war decrease.

How come.

Six has now learnt that his own place is safe (he is under protection of the Russian pop-singers) and his minute scare is now gone and his usual blood thirst is now back. Six & Co are totally pissed off. How come, another day passes by, and these uncivilized papuans are not shooting each other and not blowing each other for the sake of universal human values!

Look, the casualties of the previous Putin's "Georgian invasion" were also none or next to none. This is an extremely dangerous trend. Nobody is getting killed, this is a disaster! Democracy is at risk, human values are at risk! Heck, Pussy Riot should make a US tour and rally civilized world to go out and do some sabre rattling! Or more!

[Tanada]

The EU, Japan and North America all IMPORTING countries agreed to a system based on mutually assured economic destruction. As in if one of them gets mad at another they are hostage to economic damage if they push things too far.

Unlike the EU, USA and Japan; Russia is an EXPORTING country. They export Oil and Natural Gas, to resources that the IMPORTING countries lack and desperately need to keep their economies functioning. When there was an abundance of these resources and alternate EXPORTING countries could fill the gap caused by sanctions Russia had to play along. There is no longer an abundance and world Exporters now hold the whip. If OPEC decided to restrict sales to the EU, Japan or the USA where would they turn for fuel? There is no North Sea Brent and North Slope Prudhoe Bay field about to come online and take the pressure off the EU and USA economies. The days of dominance by the Importers has ended, they just haven't accepted that fact yet. If someone like Venezuela or Iran decides not to sell to the big three importers Russia and China have every reason they need to help them defend themselves against the military of the Importers who might decide to just try and take what they want.

This situation has been building since 2005, and once we fall into terminal decline nobody will be able to survive unless they accept Exporting country terms.

[radon1]

Pro-Kiev demonstrators said "Odessa is a Ukrainian city" and "We don't need Russian help," while pro-Russia demonstrators proclaimed "Odessa is a Russian city."

Bob, can take a look for yourself.

Here is a local popular rally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_37T6HFWSPE

People are shouting "Odessa is Hero-City", "Russia", "Fascism will not pass", "Odessa will not be surrendered", "Odessa is a Russian city", "Berkut". Berkut is the name of the official Ukrainian security services. Hero-City designation was an official WWII valor distinction in the Soviet times.

Here is the pro-"government" rally - people wearing the red-black flags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qeryy76nLrY

The speakers from the local meeting at the doors of the large official building appear to be hinting that the participants of the pro-"government" rally arrived from other places - have no idea whether this is true.

[Plantagenet]

People are shouting ..."Odessa is a Russian city"...

Actually, its a Ukrainian city. But don't let the facts interfere with your propaganda campaign.

[radon1]

People are shouting ..."Odessa is a Russian city"...

Actually, its a Ukrainian city. But don't let the facts interfere with your propaganda campaign.

I am not saying that this is a Russian city. This is definitely a Ukrainian city.

"Odessa is a Russian city" - is a slogan that the rallying crowd in Odessa shouts on the linked video. Have a look yourself.

[Pops]

Putin sanctioned himself, LOL, the Russian stock market dropped US$60 billion and the ruble finished lowest ever against the dollar before he backtracked.

Being a tyrant, oligarch and barechested tough (LOL) ain't as easy as it used to be, makes him wish for the good old days I bet.

[radon1]

Putin sanctioned himself, LOL, the Russian stock market dropped US$60 billion and the ruble finished lowest ever against the dollar before he backtracked.

Russian stock market is a fiction, it is absolutely irrelevant. It basically provides employment (or moocher allowance, better say) to various bureaucracy offspring, and is good for nothing else. No company makes capital raises of any significance using it. Putin hardly cares about it, if knows at all.

Rouble is now trading higher than the last weeks lows (i.e. before the event lows).

Being a tyrant, oligarch and barechested tough (LOL) ain't as easy as it used to be, makes him wish for the good old days I bet.

Absolutely.

[ralfy]

Not right away. Wesley Clark was talking about this, shale alternatives in Europe, and that Europe could import from the mid east and the US. But yep it would be a big disruption to lose Russian gas -- thing is though, Russia would crumble too if Euros weren't buying its gas. Russia would have to build pipelines to China and India first (which has been talked about).

Related:

"General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In Five Years"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw