[AgentR11]

Oh good grief Agent, you voted for John McCain! And Mitt Romney! Hello?

Kinda glad he lost right about now. Though perhaps they wouldn't have botched the initial phase of this mess so badly. Pre-maidan; could have cut a deal with Russia about Crimea, cheap gas, and South Stream, EU association for Kiev; would have been a beautiful package deal. Everyone getting rid of stuff that was a drain on them, everyone getting stuff that would be positive assets.. Lots of opportunities for this to NOT have gone splat.

And planes shot down.

As long as SAM's exist, planes will get shot down. Its just the human accident factor, unavoidable. Minimize it the best you can, but it is what it is.

What is tripping ALL OF YOU out, and many in the general public / intelligentsia and far left and the Libertarians, is that you're all so anti-war that you've forgotten that doesn't mean everything will be okay, skittles and rainbows, being isolationist and letting empires rise and the world go to crap.

I'm actually not anti-war. War is a natural human behavior as far as I'm concerned. However, I'm for picking our fights better. Forcing a country into a fight that would require it to use nuclear weapons to survive, is not what I would call a worthwhile fight to pick.

wanted to get Ukraine into NATO right after the Georgia war in '08.

Politicians babble. I'm talking DO. The people in Kiev acted, displacing one government for another, fine with me, don't care; that action however, placed the fate of Sevastopol in jeopardy from the Russian pov; you may say right or wrong, again, don't care. The government change over from East to West focused, forced Russia to defend something that was critical to their national security. At that point, either Russia takes Crimea, or we sack Moscow. There's no middle ground to be had.

My point, on my guys (Bush/Mitt/ (even McCain)), has been that they would never have permitted Russia to believe that control of Sevastopol was in jeopardy.

[Plantagenet]

As long as SAM's exist, planes will get shot down. Its just the human accident factor, unavoidable.

You act like some fat Russian accidentally bumped into the wrong switch and "accidentally" launched the missiles.

Actually, the mobile SAMS are a sophisticated piece of equipment. The fools operating the missile system went through a complicated procedure to power up the SAM, target this plane and then they launched not one but two missiles to bring it down.

Of course it was avoidable---all the Russians had to do is not shoot down the jet with the SAMs. Or, even better, Putin could've been sensible enough not to send a convoy of Russian trucks with weapons, equipment and 3 Russian Army SAM systems across the border into Ukraine to shoot people and shoot down planes in the first place.


psssst....you want buy credit cards? I have many Dutch credit cards for sale. No---you want passport instead? Cheap. Ok---How about black box?

[AgentR11]

As long as SAM's exist, planes will get shot down. Its just the human accident factor, unavoidable.

You act like some fat Russian accidentally bumped into the wrong switch and "accidentally" launched the missiles.

Nope. I act like the operator mis-identified a target. Just as we have done before.

[Lore]

As long as SAM's exist, planes will get shot down. Its just the human accident factor, unavoidable.

You act like some fat Russian accidentally bumped into the wrong switch and "accidentally" launched the missiles.

Nope. I act like the operator mis-identified a target. Just as we have done before.

That doesn't make it all better because we were idiots as well in the past. I doubt very much if the victims of the flight will see any reparation passed along.

[Plantagenet]

....the operator mis-identified a target.

Now you're just making things up.

The Russians haven't claimed they "mis-identified a target." The Russians are claiming no missile was fired.

"Russia's Defense Ministry also said the military has not detected the launch of any missiles near MH17's flight path, and asked the U.S. to share images "if they have them."

The Russians are also saying a Ukrainian military plane was in the sky in the area of the passenger jet. Their story keeps changing, but perhaps they actually targetted the Ukrainian military plane, and intentionally launched their missiles, but the Russian technology is so bad the Russian missile hit the passenger jet instead.

If it was accidental wouldn't the Russians just admit it? Instead, the Russians are engaged in a ridiculous cover-up.

Russia says it didn't detect any missiles being fired....


Russia SAM system photographed in eastern Ukraine just prior to the passenger jet shootdown

[Oneaboveall]

Given this crank call and the anchor's embarrassing response to it, I think MSNBC would be one of the last sources you'd want to listen to:

http://youtu.be/URF2uOD5nhE

I actually feel more embarrassed for the sick f--k that made the prank call and those who thought it was funny.

Whether or not you thought the prank was funny, the fact that he was able to get through, make the comment, and the anchor continued on (indicating that she wasn't even paying attention), says more about them than the caller.

[Lore]

Given this crank call and the anchor's embarrassing response to it, I think MSNBC would be one of the last sources you'd want to listen to:

http://youtu.be/URF2uOD5nhE

I actually feel more embarrassed for the sick f--k that made the prank call and those who thought it was funny.

Whether or not you thought the prank was funny, the fact that he was able to get through, make the comment, and the anchor continued on (indicating that she wasn't even paying attention), says more about them than the caller.

No doubt... Then again it's not like Fox News hasn't for years exceeded the limit for embarrassing and wrong headed news. In so saying, I wouldn't judge a media outlet on a mistake, but on how many times they get it right.

[Sixstrings]

My point, on my guys (Bush/Mitt/ (even McCain)), has been that they would never have permitted Russia to believe that control of Sevastopol was in jeopardy.

Okay you've got a point there, neocons can handle Russians better overall, and get respect and understanding.

Obama has just been disinterested / impossible to figure out.

So we agree.

(what happened after the Georgia war is that Merkal and the europeans said no to rushing Ukraine into NATO.)

If the Obama admin gets too harsh with the sanctions, that's far more threatening to Russia than them losing Sevastopol. So it's a perplexing move, there -- banking war is a declaration of war, would have been better to just put some troops in Ukraine.

Do you get my point on that? Think of it like gang warfare. Which is more serious, putting some soldiers on a block down the street or going after the other mafia's money and freezing all that and trying to break them that way -- the latter is FAR more serious.

We just needed to defend Ukraine, Putin wouldn't have invaded anymore than we will invade Crimea. Russians don't want a nuke war either, they're not stupid.

Putin got the troops in first, that's what happened -- Merkel was wrong years ago, George Bush and John McCain were right, but other than the loss of life that's happened it is good it worked out this way with Yanokovich gone, and Ukrainians had to fight for their revolution, they're more united now. This new Ukraine is better than a Yanokovich Ukraine from '08 in NATO would have been.

[Lore]

Yes, neocons are real good guys ....

[AgentR11]

If the Obama admin gets too harsh with the sanctions, that's far more threatening to Russia than them losing Sevastopol. So it's a perplexing move, there -- banking war is a declaration of war, would have been better to just put some troops in Ukraine.

Disagree on that point completely. There are no sanctions the US or EU can write on paper that exceed the value of the Crimea to Russia. Now, if you disagree with that numerically, we can't come to an agreed point. There basically is not a "too harsh" as long as we're talking sanctions vs Crimea.

[Sixstrings]

Disagree on that point completely. There are no sanctions the US or EU can write on paper that exceed the value of the Crimea to Russia. Now, if you disagree with that numerically, we can't come to an agreed point. There basically is not a "too harsh" as long as we're talking sanctions vs Crimea.

Well, they can't build a bridge to Crimea and pour $100 billion into that place or whatever it winds up costing, if their economy has tanked and is in shambles and under heavy sanction.

Now can they?

Russia isn't Iraq or Iran. Russia is a moderately advanced economy and has publicly traded corporations and a stock market. Which just tanked again after Obama's latest announcement of new sanctions. (before the plane shot down)

Truly seriously sanctions could cause depression in Russia, totally destabilize the place, and ultimately would cause a coup or see another president elected or Putin forced to the table.

My position is that if the issue is protecting Ukraine, then just protect Ukraine and station troops and get the air force doing patrols with a no fly zone.

Truly serious sanctions are what actually starts a war, some troops in Ukraine would deal with the issue headon and not lead to war.

WWII came out of the WWI armistice terms (sanctions).

Iraq sanctions led to war, eventually.

We don't want war to Russia, we just want to block Russian expansion -- if a Ukraine wants us there, then let's get our troops in first and checkmate Russia. Forget the sanctions.

Sanctions are actually riskier.

I do wonder what will happen, if Obama really ratchets them up. I posted his executive order back when he issued it. It's very broad. Then that was passed into law by Congress.

There's a lot that can be done sanctions wise -- Putin alone has billions offshore, that can be frozen. All those oligarchs' accounts can be frozen. Agent, that would cause a coup in Russia. Or war.

We don't really want either, just to protect Ukraine, so use the military for a military problem -- these sanctions are a road to war / coup / destabilizing Russia.

[Sixstrings]

Ukraine probe highlights weakness of US, Europe

The downing of Malaysia Flight 17 casts new light on just how inept and decadent the United States and Europe have become.

Faced with Russia’s annexation of the Crimea and attempts to repeat in the Eastern Ukraine, the best Western Europe and the United States have mustered are strong words and token sanctions on top Russian officials and several companies. That’s hardly enough to deter Vladimir Putin’s ambitions to make Russia the dominant power in Eurasia.

Now, public outrage at the downing of the Malaysian airliner will force western governments to refrain from imposing truly effective sanctions on Russia's subversive activities in the Ukraine in exchange for an international investigation.

That likely will yield little more than already inferred. Russia supplied the missiles and is culpable for enabling separatists who shot down the plane.

Not much else will happen.

Six months from now Russian agents will still be operating in the Ukraine and planning similar uprisings in other former Soviet states.

The United States lacks sufficient military assets in Europe to deter Russian aggression, and Europe’s most powerful state, Germany, lacks the will to stand up to Russia. President Obama has been too successful at paying for entitlements by cutting the defense budget, and German businesses are profiting too much from commerce with Russia.

Obama naively misjudged Putin. There is no reset button for relations with a regime led by a criminal. Putin has plundered businesses, crushed dissent and killed journalists. To believe he can be persuaded through diplomacy or imposing minor economic costs is a fool’s journey.

Putin knows if he unwinds his plans slowly and occasionally appears to engage in meaningful discussions and cooperation, he can dupe Obama and Merkel and co-opt their political constituencies. The latter have already rationalized Russia’s annexation of the Crimea and will do the same if he slices off more of the Ukraine.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/07/21/downing-mh-17-ukraine-probe-highlights-weakness-us-europe/

[AgentR11]

There's a lot that can be done sanctions wise -- Putin alone has billions offshore, that can be frozen. All those oligarchs' accounts can be frozen. Agent, that would cause a coup in Russia. Or war.

Nope. not a chance. First oligarch that stands up winds up with a bullet in his head and his assets distributed to friends and colleagues.

Hoping Putin goes down as a result of banking inconveniences is a huge fantasy.

[MD]

The United States is done as a super energy power.

[Keith_McClary]

Russia SAM system photographed in eastern Ukraine just prior to the passenger jet shootdown

Where did you get that plant-fact ?
http://www.salon.com/2014/07/19/without ... ified_jet/

[Plantagenet]

The way this has played out, one has to wonder if Putin's plan all along wasn't to shoot down a passenger jet and then blame it on the Ukrainians. After all, the pro-Russians shot down a passenger jet and the Russians are blaming it on the Ukrainians.



Maybe the shoot down was intentionally done as part of a particularly inept KGB false flag operation?

[AgentR11]

I doubt its Russia, the separatists firing at an incorrectly or unidentified target is the simplest, and most logical explanation, and doesn't contradict any knowable facts.

No special skill or motive require, just regular human stupidity.

If it was a false flag though.... "inept" is not what I'd call it. Its being very effective at keeping the focus of the mess in the Donbass away from the Crimea. It has the benefit that if it falls through as Russian, the Russians can reasonably suggest that they mis-id'd the plane thinking it was an aircraft from Kiev making a strike on their border forces.

[Keith_McClary]

The way this has played out, one has to wonder if Putin's plan all along wasn't to shoot down a passenger jet and then blame it on the Ukrainians. After all, the pro-Russians shot down a passenger jet and the Russians are blaming it on the Ukrainians.



Maybe the shoot down was intentionally done as part of a particularly inept KGB false flag operation?

That could make sense if the plan was to shoot down a Russian airliner and blame it on Kiev to justify an invasion by Russia. Is that what you're thinking?

Otherwise it makes no sense.

Also, what about:

Russia SAM system photographed in eastern Ukraine just prior to the passenger jet shootdown

Which is actually a 2010 file photo from Moscow?

[Plantagenet]

The way this has played out, one has to wonder if Putin's plan all along wasn't to shoot down a passenger jet and then blame it on the Ukrainians. After all, the pro-Russians shot down a passenger jet and the Russians are blaming it on the Ukrainians.



Maybe the shoot down was intentionally done as part of a particularly inept KGB false flag operation?

That could make sense if the plan was to shoot down a Russian airliner and blame it on Kiev to justify an invasion by Russia.

Bingo! That is almost exactly the claim the Russians are making. They are saying a Ukrainian military plane attacked the passenger jet because he thought it was a Russian plane. IN fact, the Russians are claiming the Ukrainians thought they were shooting down Putin's personal plane.....JEEEZ---what a load of BS.

The Russians even put together a photo that purportedly shows a similarity between the Malaysian jet and the Putin plane to bolster their claim. It sure smells like a KGB false flag operation---the Russians shot down a passenger jet and then blamed it on Ukraine, complete with a ridiculous story that the huge sleek and modern Boeing 777 Malysian jet looks like Putin's boxy and antiquated presidential jet


Russian KGB false flag? Russia claims that a Ukrainian jet shot down the Malaysian 777 because it looks like Putin's tiny presidential jet (but it didn't and it doesn't).

[Withnail]

Russia SAM system photographed in eastern Ukraine just prior to the passenger jet shootdown

This is strange.

That image can be found here on a web page from Pakistan dated Thursday, July 12, 2012.

http://pakistancyberforce.blogspot.co.u ... stems.html