[Plantagenet]

Russian insurgents just shot down two Ukrainian jets close to where they shot down the passenger jet in eastern Ukraine.

Also No word yet on what the Russians have done with the missing 90 bodies from the Malaysian 777. Creepy stuff.

[Quinny]

liar

....the operator mis-identified a target.

Now you're just making things up.

The Russians haven't claimed they "mis-identified a target." The Russians are claiming no missile was fired.

"Russia's Defense Ministry also said the military has not detected the launch of any missiles near MH17's flight path, and asked the U.S. to share images "if they have them."

The Russians are also saying a Ukrainian military plane was in the sky in the area of the passenger jet. Their story keeps changing, but perhaps they actually targetted the Ukrainian military plane, and intentionally launched their missiles, but the Russian technology is so bad the Russian missile hit the passenger jet instead.

If it was accidental wouldn't the Russians just admit it? Instead, the Russians are engaged in a ridiculous cover-up.

Russia says it didn't detect any missiles being fired....


Russia SAM system photographed in eastern Ukraine just prior to the passenger jet shootdown

[vtsnowedin]

Russian insurgents just shot down two Ukrainian jets close to where they shot down the passenger jet in eastern Ukraine.

Also No word yet on what the Russians have done with the missing 90 bodies from the Malaysian 777. Creepy stuff.

I think your a bit behind on this. They have found as many as can be expected considering the forces involved.

It was reported on 21 July that with 282 bodies and 87 body fragments found, there were still 16 bodies left unrecovered.[151] An agreement has been reached that the Netherlands will coordinate the identification effort. All remains will be moved to the Netherlands with Dutch air force Hercules C130 and Australian C-17 transport planes.[152][1

[Plantagenet]

There is no doubt there is creepy stuff going on---some of the victims credit cards have been ripped off, and there are photographs of Russian militia stealing rings and other valuable from the bodies. The crash site itself is now contaminated and disrupted with many items moved or stolen or selectively removed. For instance, the investigative team was shocked to see that the Russians had cut their way into the cockpit part of the plane with giant diesel-powered metal saws. You can't disrupt things much more than that.

And as far as the victims, there were ca. 200 bodies on the train to Holland, but 295 people on the plane.

If the Russians have recovered almost all of them, then where are the additional ca. 95 bodies? Shouldn't these victims be returned to their families as well?

[Plantagenet]

A Russian blogger has posted pictures of the Russian BUK SAM system returning to Russia after the passenger jet shootdown.

blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia


Look! The Russian BUK missile system that shot down the passenger jet is running away from the scene of the crime!

[AgentR11]

Six/Plant, your problem is that you think it matters what comes out of the mouth of Putin, Poroshinko, or Obama.

It doesn't in the slightest. Neither were there at the moment of launch. All have incentive to spin the event in a particular way regardless of whether the facts support them or not.

My explanation, is not based upon what they said, but what is most physically probable.

Here are facts:

There are BUK systems in E. Ukraine that are not being operated by Kiev forces.
Forces that oppose Kiev in E. Ukraine have limited air defense information systems.
Forces that oppose Kiev in E. Ukraine are engaged in surface to air combat.
Kiev forces are flying both heavy transports and ground attack aircraft in E. Ukraine.
MH17 flew West to East, through the opposition forces combat theater, within range of BUK systems.
Shooting down MH17 is a waste of an expensive, limited quantity munition for the opposition forces.
Shooting down MH17 provides no tactical benefit for Kiev or Moscow.
Kiev and Moscow have sufficient air defense information systems to properly identify and track MH17.

From these facts, indisputable facts, I come to the conclusion that opposition forces in E. Ukraine misidentified MH17 from their truck mounted system; thought they had a Ukraine transport on their screen, and fired the SAM, killing MH17 as collateral damage.

This doesn't make it a war crime, nor a murder. The appropriate remedy, as we have paid before, as Ukraine has paid before, as others have paid, is an apology and financial compensation once the facts and reports are finalized.

Now, post event, it serves Moscow's interests to string this thing along for as long as possible; always keep your eye on the prize. Every day added of complexity and intrigue, is one more day of Russian soldiers at Armyansk digging holes and laying mines, one more day of trucks and munitions coming across the ferry at Kerch.

[Plantagenet]

I come to the conclusion that opposition forces in E. Ukraine misidentified MH17 from their truck mounted system; thought they had a Ukraine transport on their screen, and fired the SAM

Who fired the SAM isn't clear yet. As the Obama administration noted in their recent statement, the SAM was definitely fired from the area controlled by pro-Russia militias, but the nationality of the BUK operator isn't known yet.

Its quite possible the BUK system was being operated by Russian army soldiers. After all, the pro-Russian militia in eastern Ukraine doesn't even have BUKS---the Russian military must've supplied them. The BUK trucks are thought to have entered eastern Ukraine shortly before the shootdown. And just days after the shoot-down, the Russian military drove their mobile Buks back out of eastern Ukraine and into Russia.

The Russian military's fingerprints are all over the passenger jet shootdown.


Russian BUK mobile SAM launchers returning to Russia from eastern Ukraine shortly after Malaysian passenger jet shootdown

[AgentR11]

Who fired the SAM isn't clear yet. As the Obama administration noted in their recent statement, the SAM was definitely fired from the area controlled by pro-Russia militias, but the nationality of the BUK operator isn't known yet.

Its quite possible the BUK system was being operated by Russian military specialists. After all, the pro-Russian militia in eastern Ukraine doesn't even have BUKS---the Russian military supplied them. The BUK trucks are thought to have entered eastern Ukraine shortly before the shootdown. And just days after the shoot-down, the Russian military drove the mobile Buks back out of eastern Ukraine and into Russia.

It is certainly quite true that the BUK could have been fired by Russian service personnel attached to the opposition forces in E. Ukraine. Don't know. Really don't care. Once they are in E. Ukraine, they fall into the bucket of "opposition forces in E. Ukraine". The only real difference it makes is who gets to cut the check after all is said and done. And even then, if Donetsk is victorious over Kiev, it's money will still be coming from Moscow in the short term, so Moscow is eventually cutting the check regardless of who pulled the trigger.

As to driving it back to Russia... let me ask you, did we turn over Vincennes to Iran after we shot down their airliner? Nope. Did we let Iranian investigators onboard? No. We cut checks and kept our hardware to ourselves. It is the correct response to an accidental shoot down.

[Plantagenet]

As to driving it back to Russia... It is the correct response to an accidental shoot down.

Actually, no.

The correct response is to admit your mistake, discipline or arrest the people responsible, aid in the response, recovery and investigation at the crash scene, and pay reparations to the families of the victims.

[AgentR11]

As to driving it back to Russia... It is the correct response to an accidental shoot down.

Actually, no.
The correct response is to admit your mistake, discipline or arrest the people responsible, aid in the response, recovery and investigation at the crash scene, and pay reparations to the families of the victims.

We were talking about disposition of the military hardware involved in the collateral damage incident.

The rest of your response is incorrect as well. Using the template of the Iranian airliner shootdown as the model; you admit the mistake after analysis is complete, you mildly scold the people who didn't read the screen right or had the weapon system configured in an inappropriate manner. The opposition forces are aiding the response as best they were able without compromising their military position with regard to the Kiev forces who are certainly not letting up on their artillery and air attacks; and finally, after the report is settled, the dead laid to rest, then the lawyers huddle and hand out compensation checks.

Lets be realistic, you are asking untrained miners and militia, some likely intoxicated as a matter of course during wartime, to perform at a level of forensic professionalism that is appropriate for people with substantial post college education and training in controlled and peaceful environments. That they got most of the bodies, into bags, and out of the country is frankly.. amazing. That enough of the plane wreckage remained and was photographed at the site to conclude that it was a missile strike is pretty good as well.

Do you believe Kiev should halt their advance while the recovery and investigation proceed? If so, you lock in Russia's primary objective in a way that Ukraine will never be able to undo.

There is sufficient evidence to determine that it was a missile strike and the altitude and track are unambiguously known. Not too shabby really.