[SeaGypsy]

Not without totally trashing the markets. If an American is worth what a Chinaman is worth, the USA is worth about 1/5th of China, or approximately 1/25th the current GDP.

[wildbourgman]

Bourg, you can go on about the free market, gold, currencies, and the debt but the fact is we outsourced jobs to low-wage countries and lost our jobs here. We'll never compete at the low end.

I really don't care if we compete at any end. I think I'm over that We're number one bull crap. I'm talking about making a change our society. I don't want central planners doing it. Sure we could do a the communist did during the cold war and say we have zero unemployment and we could force people into labor at gunpoint. I don't want go there because I don't care about getting these folks working that bad. I know people who do.

All I'm saying is if people had to work, because the safety net stopped working as a trap, then our society and our would be better. The two guys arrested in St. Louis for trying to build a bomb were waiting on they're girlfriends EBT cards to be replenished so they could buy bomb building supplies. So even American terrorist are dependent on our tax dollars. Woof!

[SeaGypsy]

The part of Australia where I live has considerable long term/ multi generational unemployment. The Guv has just made it that people claiming unemployment benefits will have to work for 25 hours a week, in some kind of voluntary position. A start. An idea that gets floated around a bit is to take cash out of the equation. Still have a safety net, but bills paid directly & card only shopping for essentials. No cash for gambling, drugs & booze & smokes, hookers etc. we have a system currently spreading across the country where 50% of SS payments are quarantined for essentials. There is still abuse of the system & the other 50% still goes where it did.

[wildbourgman]

We already force people to work at gunpoint. They stamp license plates and wash prison blues.

You know that's a whole other discussion. I'm very concerned with the prison idustry turing into outright slavery and privatizing. As a libertarian I think that private companies running prisons leads to more laws and more criminals in order for some CEO to make his quarterly numbers look good to the shareholders.

So my cure would lower crime, lower welfare spending, and teach real life lessons to folks that need it.

[PrestonSturges]

If Eric Garner's killer can't be indicted, what cop possibly could? It's time to fix grand juries

If you are an ordinary citizen being investigated for a crime by an American grand jury, there is a 99.993% chance you’ll be indicted. Yet if you’re a police officer, that chance falls to effectively nil.

I have read elsewhere that once you are indited you have a 99% chance of conviction. What other countries can beat that? North Korea?

99% chance of indictment, not conviction.

No, I said once you have been indicted you have 1% chance of being acquitted at trial:
http://open.salon.com/blog/barry60x/201 ... ne_percent

Well that's the federal courts, which is literally a whole different legal system. But yes, they definitely go after people tooth and nail, like Martha Stuart, where they dramatically reinterpreted the law to get her.

[wildbourgman]

The part of Australia where I live has considerable long term/ multi generational unemployment. The Guv has just made it that people claiming unemployment benefits will have to work for 25 hours a week, in some kind of voluntary position. A start. An idea that gets floated around a bit is to take cash out of the equation. Still have a safety net, but bills paid directly & card only shopping for essentials. No cash for gambling, drugs & booze & smokes, hookers etc. we have a system currently spreading across the country where 50% of SS payments are quarantined for essentials. There is still abuse of the system & the other 50% still goes where it did.

See, that's the direction I want to avoid. I don't want more government intrusion. Welfare programs cause big problems and then the government creates new programs to fix the big problems it created.

[SeaGypsy]

Perhaps the biggest problem though is the most difficult to fix. Having lived in Asia where the government does virtually nothing for people, perhaps a little medical help for the most desperate, no cash handouts- people look after each other much more than they do in countries like ours. The original safety net- the family- is all most people in the world have to rely on. The most messed up situations happening here are where people have both the expectation that the family will look after them & that the government will look after the family. This is the norm for aboriginal communities especially.

[wildbourgman]

Perhaps the biggest problem though is the most difficult to fix. Having lived in Asia where the government does virtually nothing for people, perhaps a little medical help for the most desperate, no cash handouts- people look after each other much more than they do in countries like ours. The original safety net- the family- is all most people in the world have to rely on. The most messed up situations happening here are where people have both the expectation that the family will look after them & that the government will look after the family. This is the norm for aboriginal communities especially.

When the government takes over the role of the family the family unit breaks down. There was a study recently that said that the happiest people know they're family history and know a story of how they're family or family members overcame hardships. The family is the original welfare state, love, pride and shame was it's main tools in order to maintain order. The modern welfare state has none of those tools in it's toolbox.

[SeaGypsy]

It could be argued that despite contrary rhetoric that government undermines the family, I totally agree. Right at this moment my wife is getting paid the equivalent of about 80% of my post tax wage! by SS, because she chose to abandon the marriage. Likelihood of her having made the same choice without the handout on offer is virtually zero.

[wildbourgman]

SeaGypsy, I ran some numbers the other day and if I were to quit my job, get a divorce and my then ex-wife and I were to game the welfare system in ever legal way that we could, we could make more money from welfare than I could if we had the average family income in our local area.

I'm talking about, earned income tax credit, foodstamps, free lunch at school, cell phone assisstance, utility assistance, social security disability, TANF, and others. It makes going to work for suckers but I just can't do it.

[SeaGypsy]

Yep WB. I recently visited my wife & kids, 3000 km away. The kids are desperate for us to get back together. The wife asked me half heartedly to look for suitable housing near where I work. A week later I found something ideal, walking distance to plenty of hospitality venues where she would easily get some part time work. I put to her that I will take the house & help with her moving expenses, on one condition, that she get work within a month, earning equivalent to what she gets off SS. This is not hard to do where I live, very low unemployment, fast growing small city. She took a day to think about it and said no thanks. Ridiculous.

[wildbourgman]

Man that's sad. My wife and I have had trouble and everytime I hear a story like that I'm glad we fought through it.

[Sixstrings]

Sixstrings, do you know how I know your a racist? Read your last post you racist shut-in.

The definition of racism:

noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

What did I say that's racist? That I mentioned a person of color that "sounds white?" Do you realize that's actually an issue, in the black community? Charles Barkley was talking about just that. That some black folks will call you an uncle tom if you read a book, or if you're conservative.

The only point I'm trying to make is the basic reason why bigotry is wrong -- because, let's say, even 3/4 of the particular minority that a person does not like is no good and up to trouble. Let's just assume that, for argument. So if you then discriminate based on that fact, you're persecuting the 25% that may be more like you than you even know. But you'd never know it, if you never got beyond the skin color.

Not all black folks are thugs or hoodlums, certainly not even most, and even most people in a ghetto are still okay folks and won't bother you. I still don't want to be the white guy in a ghetto, does that make me racist? I have a black friend of a friend who votes Republican and she's black yet she talks about ghettos all the time and ghetto culture. Is she racist?

Is Charles Barkley racist? In the black community, the term used for them is "uncle toms."

Funny thing is, I know enough about black culture that I may as well be black. But I'm not, I'll still stand out in a ghetto, and I don't want to be the white guy in a rough latino hood either. Does that make me racist, to feel that way?

I don't know about all of you guys, but yes I grew up in a culture of bigotry where white folks say things that aren't said if there are black folks in the room.

I had to tell my own brother the other day, not to use the N word outside my house because I have black neighbors.

And I've got a white neighbor that uses the N word all the time, and he's got a slur for every minority there is, including the "fag" on the HOA board. He was using the N word with me one day, and he actually says to me -- because I was obviously uncomfortable -- "oh sorry, you don't have any black family do you?"

Now here's the funny thing. The black neighbors actually love the guy! Go figure, but yeah he's a likable guy he's just an archie bunker type. He uses the N word, but at least he talks to the black neighbors. And while I don't use the N word, never, I also don't instinctively socialize with black folks. It's not that I'm racist, I'm just not used to it. I'm sorry if this is confusing, maybe I think too much, or maybe even white liberals have some inherent bigotry that they're not even aware of.

I don't know, I just size people up based on the individual. I think it's probably *ghetto* that I have a problem with, it's not skin color. It's *ghetto* that makes me nervous. That can be black, latino, or "white trash" / white folks on meth and pills and drugs.

So anyhow I shared a personal story, that I'm in an interracial dating situation now.

We passed some police, and she said to me in the car "hands up!" and we both laughed about it. But I do wonder, would we be treated differently? I KNOW I'm treated a certain way by the police, but do I know how a black person is treated? Do I know that, for sure? No, I don't.

Will we be treated differently, in public, for being an odd couple? I did notice a few looks in the restaurant, and I know what those looks meant. And then we got other looks that day too, but those looks were about how much fun we were having.

And how will black folks relate to us, will there be any racism from the opposite direction, because I'm white?

I guess I'll find out. I feel okay about it, because a) I like her a lot and I don't give a darn what anyone thinks of that, and b) she's got a good head on her shoulders and I know her enough to know she wouldn't do anything stupid around police, and c) she's a confident woman that seems able to handle anything, anyway.

[Sixstrings]

I think some of the posts in these threads did go over the line into bigotry. There were some posts in one of these threads about the IQ of different races (I didn't post that). That was definitely over the line. I think I crossed a line in a few of mine; I was more worked up that Brown was a BULLY in that robbery video. I would have felt the same if that were a white meth-head.

And then the Garner video came out, and I had a good look at that -- and with that one, folks have a point, that wasn't right.

I don't think the police were racist, they were just a little too eager to do a takedown, and they definitely should have let up when he began saying he couldn't breathe.

And sleeper holds shouldn't be used.

We saw this same problem with tasers there for a while, there was just a rash of it and cops were firing those off left in right. People were dying from it. Don't you guys remember, someone just asked John Kerry a question and got tased. "Don't tase me, bro." And I remember a sad story about a foreign guy dying in the airport, he was polish or something, he didn't do anything wrong, he just didn't speak english.

I think the Garner video has changed some opinions. We all want good law enforcement and low crime, but we do not want to see people killed in the street.

Did you know that deaths by cop are not even reported nationally, as a statistic? That should change, that's something we need to know, you need to be able to compare that to crime rates. And if if death by cop is increasing but crime is not, then that would be a problem.

And I also don't agree with quotas for cops, and pressure on them to make arrests and give out x number of tickets. That just results in overly aggressive police that are bothering all of us. There's a lot of idiots out there lately, regardless of race, we do need our police but none of us want to be harassed.

Everyone can have their own opinions about things, and I just have my own opinion and that's my right. I have to say, that I do think black folks are probably treated differently by police. If they're smart, they shouldn't make it worse and more dangerous for themselves.

I'm part native american, and a bit latino looking (some think). I think I've had some situations before where I was treated differently because I was assumed to be latino. And then I speak, and I "sound white" (because I am), and then I'm treated another way.

These are just my own opinions, but at the end of the day if you aren't black then you actually don't know how black folks are handled by the police, versus how you are treated.

Good common sense advice for everyone, regardless of race, is to never get agitated or wave your hands or do anything like that. Keep your mouth shut. Be polite, never argue, be respectful, be sweet as pie. But that's not to say that someone that can't handle their emotions so well, or is nervous or agitated or drunk or mental, deserves to die.

[wildbourgman]

Sixstrings, I was just joking because it seemed like you said too much in order to paint yourself as someone who wasn't a racist and then you write two more pages. Chill. I don't think your a racist, but you do seem very concerned about that perception.

doth protest too much, methinks

[wildbourgman]

My root cause analysis so far.

1. The breakdown of urban areas due to poor economic conditions even when overall unemployement is low (it's not low right now).

2. The breakdown of the family unit, due to welfare taking the place of the family.

3. Police that are overzealous, hostile and possibly for good reason in dangerous urban areas (see reason #1 and #2).

4. More and more nanny state policies giving the police too many reasons and possibilities to be able to negatively interact with citizens.

I'm sure you could add more.

[PrestonSturges]

The government has done horrible things, like getting our life expectancy over 58 years. Many people here believe that we need the moral clarity that can only be achieved through hunger and malnutrition.

You have to give credit to poor rural whites who vote for the GOP to make they don't get food stamps or health insurance. These are the same people that cheer when the cops crush the life out of a random black guy. Their life expectancy is dropping fast, god bless them! No doubt these are people that will lead America out of its "decline." Surely a national wave of prosperity is about to swell from places like Kentucky. We just have to make them a little bit more hungry.

[wildbourgman]

The government has done horrible things, like getting our life expectancy over 58 years. Many people here believe that we need the moral clarity that can only be achieved through hunger and malnutrition.

You have to give credit to poor rural whites who vote for the GOP to make they don't get food stamps or health insurance. These are the same people that cheer when the cops crush the life out of a random black guy. Their life expectancy is dropping fast, god bless them! No doubt these are people that will lead America out of its "decline." Surely a national wave of prosperity is about to swell from places like Kentucky. We just have to make them a little bit more hungry.

Preston, it's not about whether or not government doing something to help humans live longer and I can bet that for everything you can point to in the affirmative on that I can point to something opposing that or atleast giving just as much credit to the free market. Now even if government help increase life expectancy that's not what made America great. I don't think the Great men that started this country went around wringing their hands about not dieing so soon, the horror, the horror. What made this country great is liberty and freedom and without that who really wants to live longer?