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Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 16:55:57

Cid_Yama wrote:halting foreclosures on primary homes

Introduce collective bargaining, stopping short of raising the minimum wage immediately

Tackle Greece's "humanitarian crisis" with housing guarantees and free medical care for the uninsured unemployed

Reform public sector wages to avoid further wage cuts

Achieve pensions savings by consolidating funds and eliminating incentives for early retirement - not cutting payments.

Because heaven forbid we talk about the basics -- like the debtor focus more on paying off the debt than buying votes via liberal policies aimed at avoiding economic reality -- i.e. buying votes is more important than, being financially prudent. (When the debtor requires more favors and debt extension, etc. to avoid economic collapse).

If only something-for-nothing were a viable strategy in this universe, (outside the offices of far left liberal politicians buying votes, that is).

In your world do you expect everyone (including banks, etc). to be able to just steal your money and claim "it was too hard to pay it back" as an excuse? In such a world, do you really think a modern first world economy, where (for example) people usually use mortgages, would work better?
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 17:10:31

There's a little more to it than that, actually a lot more to it. I don't really object to the notion of paying back what was borrowed.

But the trick across the financial crisis has been to let countries borrow cheaply, and then set the interest rates on rollover debt so high that it becomes impossible for the country to pay down their debt. At that point, they get to choose between slavery and default. Just the way it is. Its an awesome way to make slaves for France and Germany though.

IF the Euro folks hadn't run up the rates on refi, I'd have more sympathy towards the French/German/ECB position; but they did what they did; and I see no reason to balk at calling it what it is. Its flat out debt enslavement. Perfectly legal; and absolutely immoral and malevolent. But we're the bad guys anyway, so why be bashful about enslaving the people of Greece and ensuring they never, ever escape. Own it and be proud.

To your example, It'd be like if the only mortgages available for 5 year notes with a balloon at the end; after first five year period, they set your next rate at 25%, and also tell you that you can't sell your house to clear the debt, but you could sell it to the bank for a quarter of its initial purchase price, and the remainder of the debt sticks with you, and is unkillable with bankruptcy or any other method. So you can't buy a new house,you can't rent an apartment; then that bank comes along and says, you can work for $5/day and stay in this "residence" we have for you; or you can starve to death.

That's about what the EU has done to these weaker southern economies. If you're ok with enslaving those folks in that fashion, then its an awesome way to capture an eternal pool of extremely cheap labor, that will never, ever be able to do anything about it.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 19:05:32

Not much searching here - just back to basics :)

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Cid_Yama wrote:halting foreclosures on primary homes

Introduce collective bargaining, stopping short of raising the minimum wage immediately

Tackle Greece's "humanitarian crisis" with housing guarantees and free medical care for the uninsured unemployed

Reform public sector wages to avoid further wage cuts

Achieve pensions savings by consolidating funds and eliminating incentives for early retirement - not cutting payments.

Because heaven forbid we talk about the basics -- like the debtor focus more on paying off the debt than buying votes via liberal policies aimed at avoiding economic reality -- i.e. buying votes is more important than, being financially prudent. (When the debtor requires more favors and debt extension, etc. to avoid economic collapse).

If only something-for-nothing were a viable strategy in this universe, (outside the offices of far left liberal politicians buying votes, that is).

In your world do you expect everyone (including banks, etc). to be able to just steal your money and claim "it was too hard to pay it back" as an excuse? In such a world, do you really think a modern first world economy, where (for example) people usually use mortgages, would work better?
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 19:33:55

"Just the way it is. Its an awesome way to make slaves for France and Germany though."., Perhaps ut's my poor background in historical studies but I don't recall stories of Africans running up to the slave ships and volunteering for duty in southern cotton fields. I also don't recall anyone being forced to make those loans nor accept them either. Adults on both sides of these BUSINESS CONTRACTS knew exactly what the terms were when THEY COMMITTED to them. Both sides need to put their big boy pants on and stop whining like little girls. LOL.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby vox_mundi » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 19:56:16

History is easy to forget...

... What’s happening here goes back more than a decade.

In 2001, Goldman Sachs secretly helped Greece hide billions of dollars through the use of complex financial instruments like credit default swaps. This allowed Greece to meet the baseline requirements to enter the Eurozone in the first place. But it also created a debt bubble that would later explode and bring about the current economic crisis that’s drowning the entire continent. But, always looking ahead, Goldman protected itself from this debt bubble by betting against Greek bonds, expecting that they would eventually fail.

Ironically, the man who headed up the Central Bank of Greece while this deal was being arranged with Goldman was – drumroll please – Lucas Papademos.

Goldman made similar deals here in the United States, masking the true value of investments, then selling those worthless investments to customers while placing bets that those same investments would eventually fail. The most notorious example was the “Timberwolf” deal, which brought down an Australian hedge fund, and which Goldman Sachs banksters emailed each other about, bragging, “Boy, that Timberwolf was one shitty deal.”

http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/thom-ha ... coup-detat
... Goldman positions itself in the middle of a speculative bubble, selling investments they know are crap. Then they hoover up vast sums from the middle and lower floors of society with the aid of a crippled and corrupt state that allows it to rewrite the rules in exchange for the relative pennies the bank throws at political patronage. Finally, when it all goes bust, leaving millions of ordinary citizens broke and starving, they begin the entire process over again, riding in to rescue us all by lending us back our own money at interest, selling themselves as men above greed, just a bunch of really smart guys keeping the wheels greased.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... e-20100405

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-2 ... -ordinary-
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 20:27:45

For those that missed it first time around.

The EU as a mechanism to transfer surplus from its “South” to its “North”
In other words, competitiveness at the core Euro countries, which are characterized by higher levels of labor productivity than in the South, mainly depends on keeping wages and prices under control, so that German commodities continue to be competitive (because of their higher quality and so on) compared to similar commodities produced in East Asia and beyond. On the other hand, compettiveness in the European periphery, which consist of countries with lower levels of labor productivity, like Greece, mainly depends on improving productivity through new investment on R&D. Therefore, the competitiveness problem in the South is mainly a development problem and refers to the need of creating a strong productive base, which will not be formed within the process of uneven capitalist development (as today), but within a process of social control of the economy to create a self-reliant economy.

Yet, despite the fundamental difference concerning the causes of low competitiveness between the “North” and the “South” of the EU, in the framework of the post-Maastricht Europe, a common policy was adopted for all member countries––a policy that was determined by the needs and the interests of the North. Thus, the Single Market, did not mean the unification of peoples, as the EU propaganda presented it, not even the unification of states, but simply the unification of free markets. ‘Free markets’, however mean not only open markets (i.e. the unhibited movement of commodities, capital and labour), but also flexible markets (i.e. the elimination of any obstacle in the free formation of prices and wages, as well the restriction of state role in the control of economic activity, which implies the drastic restriction of the element of ‘national economy’.

This was the essence of the neoliberal globalization characterizing the new institutional framework of the EU, i.e. that the state control of the domestic market of each member state (which was drastically restricted within the Single Market of 1992) was not replaced by a corresponding EU control of it, apart from some (mostly nuissance) regulations on uniformity, etc. In other words, the new institutions aimed at the maximization of the freedom of organized capital,, whose concentration was facilitated in any way possible, and the minimization of the freedom of organized labor, whose co-ordination was restricted in any way possible and mainly through the unemployment threat.

If Germany is indeed the country which was on the receiving end of the greatest benefits from joining EU and the Eurozone, whereas the countries of the European South received the least benefits out of it, this was far from accidental or due to the bad designing of the Eurozone as, post-Keynesians and other reformists (including the Euro-Left!) argue. When the Eurozone was institutionalized at the beginning of the new millennium Germany already enjoyed relatively high levels of labor productivity and competitiveness and the new currency essentially has ‘frozen’ the relative deviations between the advanced North of the Eurozone and the much less advanced South (parts of which were in fact underdeveloped).

Then, the Single Market itself, under conditions of a common currency, brought about a relative equalization of commodity prices and a certain increase in wages in the South, as workers were struggling to maintain the real value of wages and at the same time to narrow the gap in wages with Northern workers. On the other hand, German employers were in a much better position to suppress wage rises because of the difference in labor productivity they enjoyed due to advanced technology and investment in R&D, but also due to better relative prices. As Wolfgang Münchauput it, “Germany entered the Eurozone at an uncompetitive exchange rate and embarked on a long period of wage moderation.

Macroeconomists would say Germany benefited from a real devaluation against other members”. If we add to this, that the countries in the South no longer had the power to devalue their currencies, whereas Germany did not have any need to devalue its currency as long as it could keep wage rises in pace with labor productivity increases, then we can understand why (and how) the Eurozone essentially functions as an economic mechanism to transfer economic surplus from the countries of the European South to those in the North and particularly Germany.

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To make this simpler, independent nations can use the tools of wages, prices, currency valuation and tariffs to control their own trade balance.

If an economically weaker country enters into 'free trade'(gives up it's right to use those tools to protect it's own trade balance) with economically stronger countries, then a trade imbalance in favor of the economically stronger nation naturally develops. Without restrictions within the Eurozone to prevent those trade imbalances from occuring, the stronger nations feed on the weak.

Not only do the weaker nations not benefit from the economic union, they are destroyed by it.

That is what has happened to all the weaker nations in the EU; Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 30 Mar 2015, 20:57:21

ROCKMAN wrote:Adults on both sides of these BUSINESS CONTRACTS knew exactly what the terms were when THEY COMMITTED to them. Both sides need to put their big boy pants on and stop whining like little girls. LOL.


I described the situation well enough; we laid the bait, they took it, we set the hook. They failed to envision all the possibilities that could occur once they had taken the bait. All entirely legal, and above board. Nothing was hidden. On the other hand, nothing untoward was disclosed that need not be. Like I noted, I'm comfortable enough with it. They can get on their knees and scrub those floors while they pay half the amount of the due interest, beat down their total economic output so they have no chance of every catching up, and be forced to auction off everything of value at a tenth what its worth, if that.

What I'm not OK with is people enforcing the above, and not acknowledging the truth of their actions.

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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 31 Mar 2015, 04:09:24

The grasp and grab for resources, including and most obviously oil and gas, has been going on since the beginning of the 20th Century in its current state. It was spoken about openly when the media was more constrained and less widely available. Churchill spoke eloquently about how debt was a far better weapon against rowdy natives than the Gestapo or the state-capitalists in the Soviet Union’s KGB.

Debt would allow “great men” to reach their destiny without insufferable wretches, the public, getting in their way. Institutionalize debt internationally and it would also allow great nations to rule quietly and with Adam Smith’s “silent hand.” “Or else we should be forever trapped within our mansions.” said Churchill.

Adam Smith however would today be classed as a left wing economist, the Joseph Stiglitz of his age. He wrote, also eloquently, about how markets needed justice in order to function, otherwise the merchant class would spew despair and misery around the world.

History has shown him to have been correct.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 31 Mar 2015, 06:21:08

Cid_Yama wrote:
If an economically weaker country enters into 'free trade'(gives up it's right to use those tools to protect it's own trade balance) with economically stronger countries, then a trade imbalance in favor of the economically stronger nation naturally develops. Without restrictions within the Eurozone to prevent those trade imbalances from occuring, the stronger nations feed on the weak.


This is a typical example of interaction of a "developed" market with a "developing' one, whereby they are dissolving into a single one. This process is the single most important driver of capitalism.

The "developing" market may balance the trade as long as it is able to produce tradable low-processed goods, normally commodities. In absence of those, the only way for the "developing" market to balance the trade is to provide cheap labor.

This is why the stories about a universal possibility of an "economic miracle" are fairy tales, under capitalism.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 01 Apr 2015, 03:37:22

Greece looks to Russia as deal with Europe stumbles
With the prospect of a default looming in Greece, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is preparing to meet next week with President Vladimir V Putin of Russia as a European deal to give more aid to Athens falters.

The timing has raised questions of whether the visit is an ordinary component of the new Greek government's multipronged foreign policy, or a pivot toward Russia for financial aid in the event that Greece's talks with European officials collapse.

Tsipras, who came to power in January, originally planned to travel to Moscow in May. But he accelerated the meeting with Putin a couple of weeks ago as Greece came to loggerheads with Germany and other European countries over the terms for releasing the money. Without it, Greece could go bankrupt or possibly exit the 19-nation euro zone, an event that, if it happened, could increase instability in the region.

Tsipras's visit to Moscow is being billed by Athens as a routine meeting to strengthen the relationship between the countries, which have longstanding political and religious ties. But some Greek officials have suggested that Athens might be tempted to assess whether Russia, which is itself squaring off with Europe over the conflict in Ukraine, could be willing to ride in as a white knight if Europe steps back.

In an address to Parliament on Monday night, Tsipras said that Greece's list of "short-term measures" to creditors included curbing fuel and tobacco smuggling, checks on bank transfers and fighting sales tax fraud.

"It's time for the 'haves' to start paying and for the looting of the middle class and salaried workers to stop," he said.

Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, has said that Moscow would consider a Greek request for aid if one is made - an offer that the Russian ambassador to Greece repeated in an interview with a Greek newspaper over the weekend.

On Monday, the Greek energy minister, Panagiotis Lafazanis, traveled to Moscow to meet with his Russian counterpart and the chief executive of the Russian energy giant Gazprom. As he prepared to leave for Moscow, Mr. Lafazanis lashed out at the European Union and Germany for "tightening the noose" around the Greek economy.

Athens has also talked of turning to China for help if need be.

On Friday, Deputy Prime Minister Yiannis Dragasakis met with Vice Premier Ma Kai in Beijing, where both men pledged to strengthen ties between the countries. Mr. Dragasakis also assured Beijing that the Chinese state-run shipping company Cosco could move ahead with a tender for a 67.7 percent stake in Greece's Piraeus Port Authority, one of the most strategic ports in southern Europe.

link

Western Media keeps pretending that if Greece leaves the Eurozone they will seek to borrow money elsewhere to pay the IMF and ECB. In their dreams.

Grexit means Default. Plain and simple. They won't see another dime.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby peripato » Fri 03 Apr 2015, 09:53:02

Cid_Yama wrote:Greece looks to Russia as deal with Europe stumbles
With the prospect of a default looming in Greece, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is preparing to meet next week with President Vladimir V Putin of Russia as a European deal to give more aid to Athens falters.

The timing has raised questions of whether the visit is an ordinary component of the new Greek government's multipronged foreign policy, or a pivot toward Russia for financial aid in the event that Greece's talks with European officials collapse.

Tsipras, who came to power in January, originally planned to travel to Moscow in May. But he accelerated the meeting with Putin a couple of weeks ago as Greece came to loggerheads with Germany and other European countries over the terms for releasing the money. Without it, Greece could go bankrupt or possibly exit the 19-nation euro zone, an event that, if it happened, could increase instability in the region.

Tsipras's visit to Moscow is being billed by Athens as a routine meeting to strengthen the relationship between the countries, which have longstanding political and religious ties. But some Greek officials have suggested that Athens might be tempted to assess whether Russia, which is itself squaring off with Europe over the conflict in Ukraine, could be willing to ride in as a white knight if Europe steps back.

In an address to Parliament on Monday night, Tsipras said that Greece's list of "short-term measures" to creditors included curbing fuel and tobacco smuggling, checks on bank transfers and fighting sales tax fraud.

"It's time for the 'haves' to start paying and for the looting of the middle class and salaried workers to stop," he said.

Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, has said that Moscow would consider a Greek request for aid if one is made - an offer that the Russian ambassador to Greece repeated in an interview with a Greek newspaper over the weekend.

On Monday, the Greek energy minister, Panagiotis Lafazanis, traveled to Moscow to meet with his Russian counterpart and the chief executive of the Russian energy giant Gazprom. As he prepared to leave for Moscow, Mr. Lafazanis lashed out at the European Union and Germany for "tightening the noose" around the Greek economy.

Athens has also talked of turning to China for help if need be.

On Friday, Deputy Prime Minister Yiannis Dragasakis met with Vice Premier Ma Kai in Beijing, where both men pledged to strengthen ties between the countries. Mr. Dragasakis also assured Beijing that the Chinese state-run shipping company Cosco could move ahead with a tender for a 67.7 percent stake in Greece's Piraeus Port Authority, one of the most strategic ports in southern Europe.

link

Western Media keeps pretending that if Greece leaves the Eurozone they will seek to borrow money elsewhere to pay the IMF and ECB. In their dreams.

Grexit means Default. Plain and simple. They won't see another dime.

Whether Greece stays with the Euro or bails out, what difference will it make in the long run? The problem is that it cannot grow its way out of insolvency, as it would have in the past upon default, when there was plenty of oil for everyone to go around. Now the weaker and less useful countries are being forced out of the modern economy so that the remainder can keep their lifestyles for a little while longer. However more and more will soon follow in Greece's shadow.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 03 Apr 2015, 15:35:20

yes the pie is shrinking and a kind of survival of the fittest is setting in so this quote is spot on "Now the weaker and less useful countries are being forced out of the modern economy so that the remainder can keep their lifestyles for a little while longer. However more and more will soon follow in Greece's shadow."
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 03 Apr 2015, 17:20:13

Some of the noise coming out of EU politicians appear to show that they're reaching the "acceptance" phase as it is becoming clearer to all that neither side is going to blink and that Greece is unable to "jump" high enough without risking civil strife to comply. I think that a Grexit is almost a certainty now.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby peripato » Fri 03 Apr 2015, 20:59:50

dolanbaker wrote:Some of the noise coming out of EU politicians appear to show that they're reaching the "acceptance" phase as it is becoming clearer to all that neither side is going to blink and that Greece is unable to "jump" high enough without risking civil strife to comply. I think that a Grexit is almost a certainty now.

There will be "Grexits" all-round soon enough... :lol:
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 03 Apr 2015, 23:20:55

" Now the weaker and less useful countries are being forced out of the modern economy so that the remainder can keep their lifestyles for a little while longer." Sounds like a job for MADOR MAN. LOL.

MADOR: Mutually Assured Distribution Of Resources. As described above the stronger economies do their best to avoid competing against each other for resources and thus preventing serious confrontations between them. The weaker economies won't have the ability to counteract such coalitions.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby peripato » Sat 04 Apr 2015, 02:14:13

ROCKMAN wrote:" Now the weaker and less useful countries are being forced out of the modern economy so that the remainder can keep their lifestyles for a little while longer." Sounds like a job for MADOR MAN. LOL.

MADOR: Mutually Assured Distribution Of Resources. As described above the stronger economies do their best to avoid competing against each other for resources and thus preventing serious confrontations between them. The weaker economies won't have the ability to counteract such coalitions.

This assumes all the big players are sane. Which they are clearly not. :lol:
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 04 Apr 2015, 05:42:39

I would not say they are insane , it is just how we humans have been doing things for quite some time. The stronger exploit the weaker. As the pie gets smaller the exploitation is more ruthless. their are no real alliances just games within games. Things are starting to get quite interesting geo-politically. Sort of like the series I really like "Game of Thrones"
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 04 Apr 2015, 08:35:11

"This assumes all the big players are sane." It has nothing to do with sanity, justice, fairness, morality, etc. The simple fact that the US has consumed and continues to consume fossil fuels at an extremely disproportionate level based upon population size.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 06 Apr 2015, 13:18:15

And it can afford to do so, by virtue of its GDP.
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Re: Greece next to be declared Enemy by Western Media

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 07 Apr 2015, 08:06:55

ennui - Exactly. And as always the strong GDP win against the weak GDP. But eventually, just like the two gangs that terrorize an area, eventually they'll have to confront each other when there's no longer enough spoils harvested from the weaker. Until that time the MADOR protocol will prevail. But eventually MADOR becomes DOR...Domination Of Resources. The weaker GDP's don't have the military capability of confronting their circumstances. Not true when the MADOR players reach the DOR endgame.
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