[ennui2]

Industrial civilization is vile.

Says the man from the comfort of his computer. Did you sip a latte while typing this hypocrisy?

[AgentR11]

I did not imply that I was just and noble. Thus no hypocrisy at all.

[americandream]

I did not imply that I was just and noble. Thus no hypocrisy at all.

ennui has a point however. We should be careful not to shoot down our evolutionary tools, turning to the very behaviours that are causing us to misuse these tools. This notion of our noble savage past is unrealistic given that we are at another phase of evolutions pathway.

[Timo]

Industrial civilization is vile.

Says the man from the comfort of his computer. Did you sip a latte while typing this hypocrisy?

HEY! I have a latte in front tof me right now, and i'm sitting at my computer. I'm openly admitting that fact, so there's no hypocrisy at all. I am the very model of the modern nobel parasite.

As long as i confess my parasitic behaviors, the Flying Spaghetti Monster will forgive me.

Forgive me FSM, for i have enjoyed my latte while blabbing on the computer.

[ennui2]

I did not imply that I was just and noble. Thus no hypocrisy at all.

Well, usually when someone expresses that they think something is vile, they'd like it to go away. I don't take it you'd like modern gadgets to go away. Therefore there is a heaping dose of cognitive dissonance at play here, even if you remove the moral argument.

There are a lot of people who argue purely in the abstract who would not want to put their money where their mouth is. It's kind of like a chicken hawk politician who wouldn't want his son to serve overseas. If you want the end of industrial civilization, then you have to also welcome what that will mean to you, personally.

But don't wish it would go away in some painless way that you and your loved ones won't feel. That's living in a dreamworld.

[AgentR11]

Not only do I not wish it to go away, I'm pretty sure it won't for some time. That does not preclude me from recognizing it for what it is. Industrial civilization is a vile abomination, and it provides me (and most here) great pleasure and comfort, even for those who do not wish to acknowledge it. I understand that most are desperate to see themselves as "the good guy", even as they use a 1-2 ton machine, and enough energy to feed a horde of people, to go fetch a box of cookies. I don't share that need.

What is "living in a dreamworld" is believing that there is an out. The hand has been dealt, and we may play it as we wish, but there is no new deal. Humans would have been far better off, individually, and as a species, had the last 10,000 years not happened; had we stayed within our hunter, gathering, tribal war-fighting ways, we could have enjoyed this beautiful world for probably several million more years. As it is, the clock is ticking in decades, not millennia. And no desire on my part will alter it, even in the tiniest measurable fashion. The clock can not be turned back; and the ingenuity of man used to craft his own annihilation can not be undone.

[ffkling]

One of the most impressionable books I have ever read provides a unique perspective into the fundamental nature of mankind, and should be required reading for all students. This book is about the life of a rat in the horrific world we have created. It's titled, "Rat, A Novel" by polish writer Andrzej Zaniewski.

[Ibon]

Not only do I not wish it to go away, I'm pretty sure it won't for some time. That does not preclude me from recognizing it for what it is. Industrial civilization is a vile abomination, and it provides me (and most here) great pleasure and comfort, even for those who do not wish to acknowledge it. I understand that most are desperate to see themselves as "the good guy", even as they use a 1-2 ton machine, and enough energy to feed a horde of people, to go fetch a box of cookies. I don't share that need.

Just to once again remind everyone. Industrial civilization in not a vile abomination nor is it unsustainable at a specific population level. The great pleasures and comfort that it provides at a certain population level means we are all the "good guys" and there would be no cognitive dissonance.

[Timo]

Industrial civilization in not a vile abomination nor is it unsustainable at a specific population level. The great pleasures and comfort that it provides at a certain population level means we are all the "good guys" and there would be no cognitive dissonance.

Ibon, i have to disagree with you on this. Humanity has not proven iteself capable of living within certain population levels in an industrial civilization. Pre-industrial civilization, sure. Humans lived well within the natural limits of their environments. Once humans entered the industrial era, however, well, here we are. In theory, you are correct. However, i don't mean to be crass, but your theory is not based on reality. Humans may be capable of living in an industrial civilization within population constraints, but at this point in time, we've failed miserably in that respect, and the whole game is just about over. To put it another way, technology is not a vile abomination. Humans using that technology inevitably is a vile abomination.

[Ibon]

Industrial civilization in not a vile abomination nor is it unsustainable at a specific population level. The great pleasures and comfort that it provides at a certain population level means we are all the "good guys" and there would be no cognitive dissonance.

Ibon, i have to disagree with you on this. Humanity has not proven iteself capable of living within certain population levels in an industrial civilization.

My quote above made no such statement that humanity has proven itself capable of living within any regulated population level. I was merely pointing out that it is not industrial civilization that is vile but the numbers of humans it supports. And that if we did have (which we dont) lower enough population levels we could enjoy the great comforts and pleasures of the industrial revolution without all the ill affects we see today. That's a big if and yes we have not proven ourselves capable.

You have to wonder if this obvious fact might not influence policy one day among governments trying to maintain stability when consequences start to squeeze. I don't mean in an enlightened way either.

[Timo]

Ibon, sorry about that. I did indeed misinterpret your previous post. Moving along, though, it would be absolutely wonderful to live with modern comforts within the earth's natural carrying capacity. But, not gonna happen.

This, and other discussions consistently brings back to me that factor in the Drake Equation that posits intelligent life's abiltiy to survive its own technological advancement long enough to become indefinitely sustainable. If there is intelligent life elsewhere out in another solar system, surely the same factors apply to them, as well. Life in general is but a mere nano second in the grand history of the universe.

[onlooker]

I find the replies comforting as we all struggle with the revelations of seeing the true trajectory of humanity. To you Desu, I can only say think about your judgement does that not resonate that you have seen the perversions of this civilization and it disgusts you. Well, I do believe many people LIKE YOU are disenchanted to various degrees about the current condition of our world-wide civilization. As a few posts stated focus on the potential and actual goodness of yourself and those you encounter. See goodness it will mitigate this disgust you feel. As for your question, I also have little hope for our collective future. But I do not worry about it, I am trapped within the limits of abilities to process information and even more to become too emotional about it. So I distance myself with the simplest of sage quotes "Do not worry be happy" After all whatever awaits after death will probably be much better.

[ChilPhil1986]

I was here once from a philosophical standpoint and decided I didn't want to hang around and watch the demise of humanity. Luckily, (or unluckily, or just shitty aim, depending on your interpretation) three bullets missed their intended target and the subsequent rounds jammed the gun. After that, the protracted recovery time allowed for me to do some religious analysis. Now, despite my awareness of how screwed everything is (including my face), I've got what it takes to wake up every day and function relatively smoothly.

I'm just gonna submit my opinion that the Bhagavad Gita is pretty awesome for a religious text that's almost 2,000 years old (according to Wiki). Blows the Koran and the Bible out of the water, and yes, I've read all three. Humanity got you stressed? Peak oil getting you down? Personal disabilities pissing you off? Spilled the latte of hypocrisy all over yo' keyboard? The Gita chills me the f*ck out every time.

[Ibon]

This, and other discussions consistently brings back to me that factor in the Drake Equation that posits intelligent life's abiltiy to survive its own technological advancement long enough to become indefinitely sustainable. If there is intelligent life elsewhere out in another solar system, surely the same factors apply to them, as well. Life in general is but a mere nano second in the grand history of the universe.

Intelligent life elsewhere might not have even developed technology.

Imagine that instead of homo sapiens it was dolphins whose cerebral cortex evolved to the advanced state of reason and self awareness. In an aqueous environment with no apposing thumb to make tools there would not be any significant technology. Just intelligence. Why would advanced dolphin intelligence want to look for life in other solar systems?

[onlooker]

Phil that is a very honest ,revealing and personal response. I guess all (most) here feel the daunting weight of what we know and believe. I for one have always believed in God, this universe and existence is just way to miraculous and awesome to be explained by some physical-mechanical process. What helps me also is to feel compassion the way I do now as opposed to when I was younger. Many people around the world are hurting psychologically speaking. No longer are people drinking the cool-aid that the establishment wished us to drink. I always come back to the exit door put in by God, meaning Death. Sooner or later we all are going to walk through that exit.

[rollin]

I am not worried about humanity at all. People are an ultimate form of evolution. Their ability to communicate, believe in non-existent things and beings, ability to imagine things that don't exist, combined with the dexterity and organization to implement them into existence is without comparison in nature. Humans can change the way they act and interact by agreement (fiction). The whole of human civilization is a giant fiction and that is why it works, it can change quickly with a change of mind.

Humans have moved themselves out of the food chain, they almost have free will, and have mostly left natural selection behind. This is the grandest experiment ever launched and no one knows it's outcome. It could be great, it could be disastrous, it could be great after being disastrous. Who really knows?
So just worry about your own slice of the pie, no need to worry about Nature's creations. Just do your part to relieve some of the local depravity.

[Timo]

This, and other discussions consistently brings back to me that factor in the Drake Equation that posits intelligent life's abiltiy to survive its own technological advancement long enough to become indefinitely sustainable. If there is intelligent life elsewhere out in another solar system, surely the same factors apply to them, as well. Life in general is but a mere nano second in the grand history of the universe.

Intelligent life elsewhere might not have even developed technology.

Imagine that instead of homo sapiens it was dolphins whose cerebral cortex evolved to the advanced state of reason and self awareness. In an aqueous environment with no apposing thumb to make tools there would not be any significant technology. Just intelligence. Why would advanced dolphin intelligence want to look for life in other solar systems?

Good food for thought. However, I think it's already highly probably that dolphins are already self-aware, and have developed quite advanced states of reason in their actions. I saw a video, maybe a year ago, where several dolphins, all identified as part of the same family, were having a funeral for a deceased member. Before the death, all of the dolphins took turns bringing the dying member up to the surface to breath. When they realized there efforts were no longer working, they visibly were upset, and then collectively took his body out to deeper waters and very ceremoniously let it sink into the deep. The humans filming this ordeal described it as an incredible depiction of the dolphins being self-aware, even to the point of performing ritual ceremonies for their deceased. What more demonstration of reason and self-awareness could anyone ask for?

But, to answer your question about advanced intelligence looking for life in other solar systems, well, I don't have any answer at all. That is a very interesting question: does self-aware and reasoned intelligence inherently lead to questioning about life in other worlds? I'm guessing No. But, I suppose it's also possible that dolphins have already developed telepathic means of communications with those other extraterrestrial life forms. It's a reasonable hypothesis, anyway.

Or not. Sorry. I'm reading Slaughterhouse Five again right now, and it's opened up a wormhole in my brain. And so it goes.