[Cid_Yama]

have a stocked underground facility that we can live out the rest of our lives in, should that be necessary.

Sounds like someone wants doomsday to happen to justify having a bunker.

You have become terrified of a bogeyman totally made up by the elite controlled media. Russia doesn't have much of a conventional army anymore. They are incapable of this global conquest myth you have in your head. That also means their only option of defending themselves from you and your rabid friends is nuclear. Unlike the past they have no conventional options anymore.

Frankly, I've lived a full life and have a stocked underground facility that we can live out the rest of our lives in, should that be necessary.

So go ahead, you and your idiot friends can blow it all up playing macho brinksmanship games. I no longer care.
You don't have much of a life to look forward to anyway.

Cherry pick much?

[Tanada]

The government of the United States is manned by thugs. At least the educated involved citizens still have a voice of sorts.

Evidence?

[Cid_Yama]

To you warmongers. This next war, should it occur, will not be like that envisioned in the 1980's nor even like the Gulf War.

Russia has both hypersonic cruise missiles and supercavitating torpedoes.

Their newest submarines are virtually undetectable, travel at high speeds, and no ship can avoid or defend from their torpedoes. Supercavitating torpedoes are nearly invisible to sonar and are far faster than any ship.

Nothing can defend against their hypersonic cruise missiles which can be both air launched and sub launched.
They travel at Mach 3 and can travel as low as 5 meters off the ground. A Mach 7 version is nearly completed.

The escalation potential is so rapid, nuclear war is practically unavoidable. Every target gets hit without warning and with extreme accuracy.

Imagine a war where weapon technology has far outstripped defensive technology. Where there is no defense no warning and highly accurate targeting.

In such a war there is only death. Every target in the US can be struck within a few minutes, without warning.

The US homeland is no longer comfortably safe across the ocean. A world war will not be fought 'over there'.

And forces in Europe would be immediately cut off from resupply as the ocean will be closed.

Think again. You will not bully Russia into submission. You will only force her to use her nuclear arsenal.

And most likely, you would be taking on both Russia and China.

[Sixstrings]

Analysis: BALTOPS 2015 Highlights New Friction Between West, Russia

The annual maritime exercise in the Baltic Sea is under way and bigger than ever, with about 49 ships, 69 aircraft, and a submarine involved. The U.S. Navy is well represented by, among others, the USS San Antonio, and the Royal Navy has brought its largest warship, HMS Ocean to the region. An exercise of long standing, BALTOPS has in previous iterations focused on the lower end of the operational spectrum, in order to prepare U.S. friends and allies in the region to participate in, for example, humanitarian or counterpiracy operations.

This year, however, naval and amphibious warfighting is back as a centerpiece of BALTOPS, including even an amphibious landing, as well as B-52s swinging through at low altitudes to practice dropping sea mines off the southern coast of Sweden to halt an amphibious landing by an aggressor. The harder-edged BALTOPS says a lot about the changing maritime environment in the Baltic Sea, which promises new challenges for U.S. and allied maritime power.
http://news.usni.org/2015/06/11/analysis-baltops-2015-highlights-new-friction-between-west-russia

Video of Russian fighter jets buzzing USS San Antonio:

USS San Antonio in the Baltic Sea: June 8, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCRAnXyvPQI

General Motors shifts production from Russia to Belarus:

http://wardsauto.com/management-strategy/general-motors-shifts-russian-production-belarus

Putin may station troops in Belarus, in response to US putting some gear into east europe:

Russia Threatens To Increase Military Presence In Belarus, Kaliningrad If US Puts Troops And Heavy Weapons In Eastern Europe
http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-threatens-increase-military-presence-belarus-kaliningrad-if-us-puts-troops-1967033

Belarus and China hold exercises near EU borders

According to the Plan of main international military cooperation events for the year 2015, paratroopers of the two countries are to participate in the joint Belarusian-Chinese counter-terrorism exercise Dashing Eagle 2015.
http://charter97.org/en/news/2015/6/15/155576/

Interesting article:

European answer to Eurasia: One should be firm with Russia

What are the reasons? There are internal and external ones. It is a dead end. There are no prospects to be a member of the Eastern Partnership. We have faced the wall. Now we have two ways: turn back or wreck the wall. Now we go back and call it a progress, but actually the wall is still there. The external reason is that we have underestimated the corruption level in these countries. What do we observe in Ukraine, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Belarus? This is not the corruption as in Hungary. It is the power taken over by corrupt oligarchs. It is much worse than an ordinary corruption. The second factor is the underestimated Russia's influence in these countries.

Both Russia and Western countries do not realize it. It results in our losing game against Russia. And it's a shame, because Russia is a weak country, which only tries to seem strong. They use armaments, which are recognized by many as power. But it is a weak point, because they have nothing but military force. And such a demonstration is observed not only in Ukraine: the same scenario was practiced in Georgia. They had a clear message for other countries - Armenia, Belarus - if you do not obey, we will throw the sword into the say.

...

We play by Russia's rules, so it is the main reason why we are losing the "game", inter alia, in Ukraine. What was the response to the military evasion and annexation of the Crimea? None. It is an inappropriate response. But I think there is a way out.

The history shows that dictatorships win battles, but lose wars.
http://charter97.org/en/news/2015/6/15/155586/

[AgentR11]

USS San Antonio in the Baltic Sea: June 8, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCRAnXyvPQI

Looks like a clean and safe overflight / surveillance. Or do you believe only the US is allowed to make such observations and use of international waters and airspace?

[Sixstrings]

You guys still do not address the fact that Russian air force, and some navy, have been crossing some of its neighbors borders.

Like Sweden, Holland, the Baltic nations, the UK.

They do not have the right to do this, and the West does not do it to them, we always obey the rules of intl waters.

(edited for brevity)

[Plantagenet]

The government of the United States is manned by thugs.

Obama, Hillary, Kerry, and the Ds are thugs now?

You've certainly changed your point of view, Peter.

[AgentR11]

You guys still do not address the fact that Russian air force, and some navy, have been crossing the borders of all its neighbors.

Yes. I think we should address it. We should fire at least a few hundred cruise missiles into Moscow and blow the place up; after all, those horrible intrusions across the complicated airspace corridors of the Baltic Sea surely deserves the destruction and killing of many thousands of Russians. The nerve of those people; they should pay and pay and pay until there isn't enough left of them to mop the floors of an Ethiopian on welfare (in Ethiopia!)

(The above is sarcasm. For those lacking sufficient brain cells to read it clearly).

Really, whats to address? Did the Russians bomb anyone when they intruded? We intrude and bomb folks all the time; mostly for amusement as far as I can tell, we certainly accomplish next to nothing doing it. Really, we should do, what we did do; respond to the insignificant nuisance of Russia with an insignificant verbal/written protest. Past that, are you suggesting we should kill some Russians in response to an airspace intrusion? Maybe we should shoot at the jet when they do that, but they're in and out of national airspace very quickly, so we'll need to set up anti-aircraft batteries every few miles all along the Baltic coast; seems like a great way to spend a few hundred billion USD... we have plenty right?

I know, lets make Ukraine pay for it! yeah! WOOOOOOOTTT.

[Plantagenet]

I don't remember defending Obama

You must be suffering from some form of amnesia. You've spent years at this site ranting and raving about how great Obama is and how misguided people are to criticism him about anything.

Perhaps its just as well that you don't remember all the effusive praise you would bestow on Obama while defending him---its pretty embarrassing stuff.

I had no idea Obama was so so so out of his league. Who is playing him?

How curious this lack of memory is. Again, a number of us here at this site have been telling you for years that obama is "out of his league.' Don't you remember any of it?

IMHO no one is "playing him".....he's just way out of his league on this, and to make it worse he's too arrogant to realize it.

[Sixstrings]

Yes. I think we should address it. We should fire at least a few hundred cruise missiles into Moscow and blow the place up; after all, those horrible intrusions across the complicated airspace corridors of the Baltic Sea surely deserves the destruction and killing of many thousands of Russians.

No -- if they keep doing this though, then as much as everyone hates to do it, we may have to start engaging the Russian aircraft.

It's simple self defense. It's the final red line. They have no right to be in our soverign skies, above our heads, you can't spin this any other way Agent. Swedes and the Dutch are saying it's endangering passenger airliners.

Back in the 50s we did the U2 spy missions over Russia. And they shot it down. So fine, we took a chance and got busted. If it gets that bad and we have to shoot one of their planes down, over our sovereign land, then surely they will have to realize they were in the wrong too, just as we were in the 1950s.

This is basic defense of one's property, there's nothing Russia can say to ever justify that, incursion across the border is a final red line. If a border is not a red line then I don't know what a line is.

Same goes for Mexico, by the way. Cartel corrupted Mexican army and air force cannot be crossing our border without our permission.

And that's just my opinion, I'm sorry I'm too conservative for you.

Really, whats to address? Did the Russians bomb anyone when they intruded?

They're trying to intimidate these countries, and scare people.

Those games are okay in international waters, but our border must remain a hard red line.

I'm not being a warmonger here, this is just very basic stuff, Russia would not allow us to keep crossing their border either and they must show the Western allies the same respect, I'm sorry, ok?

[Sixstrings]

Look folks --

Even an AMERICAN CITIZEN cannot fly into restricted air space in certain no fly zones. And if an american citizen tries to enter certain military base zones, then deadly force is authorized.

Even American citizens must follow FAA regulations, regarding transponders and flight plans and all of that. There is no exception in the US Constitution for Russian fighter jets and bombers, ok?

This is just how it is, it is a very basic concept.

Private property, too -- if someone comes onto your property and is armed and you're in fear and you own that property and they don't have your permission to be there, then the law says you have a right to defend yourself.

edit: p.s I'm so far off the reservation from the bernie tent. I sincerely hope Putin cools it down and things don't get worse, because we have domestic priorities here in the US, I would prefer to vote Democrat.

[AgentR11]

No -- if they keep doing this though, then as much as everyone hates to do it, we may have to start engaging the Russian aircraft.

Alrighty then. I told you what it would cost to do what you're asking to do.

If what you are suggesting regarding the Russians is truth, then they are violating on purpose, and doing it for the irritation factor. Thus, my eyeball, rough guestimate, is 300 bn USD in hardware to do what you want to do; and it will all have to be continual manned and maintained, so take on another couple billion a year in eternal, never ending cost.

So excluding the poor who don't pay taxes; that means, you're either intending to print the money to pay for it; cut $300 bn from other capital programs (say 10 yrs of no highway construction and repair); or you believe we should raise the taxes of most Americans by about $1500. To respond to a Russian jet nibbling on the airspace of Latvia or Sweden.

Which is it.

Then I'd like you to think about what it cost Russia to fly that jet over and nibble.

Then I'd like you to consider that Russia could fly one of those jets on auto/remote pilotless and nibble.. say once a year.

Russia thus spends a few thousand on fuel and a retiring aircraft, once a year to cause us to go 10 years with no highway repair funds for the entire US.

Remember what I said about hybrid warfare. Its the art of spending a grand, in order to force the enemy to spend a million. We do not outsize the Russian economy by 1000 times. We do not out-technical Russian engineering by 1000 times. If we engage in hybrid war, on their terms. Our defeat is guaranteed.

Back in the 50s we did the U2 spy missions over Russia. And they shot it down. So fine, we took a chance and got busted. If it gets that bad and we have to shoot one of their planes down, over our sovereign land, then surely they will have to realize they were in the wrong too, just as we were in the 1950s.

They shot it down, and were able to shoot it down, because the U2 flew over the most defended zones in the USSR. These nibbles Russia is doing are nothing like that; if they are intentional, they will continue to nibble on the LEAST defended zones. They aren't taking pictures or other recon, they're just being pests. They'll be pests in the least costly, least risky locations they can select.

And that's just my opinion, I'm sorry I'm too conservative for you.

You're not too conservative. Conservatives lead with how they intend to pay for things. Democrats are perfectly happy to blow things up and make war.

[ROCKMAN]

Just a silly side note to the discussion about supplying serious US fire power to the mix. From another lifetime: a great bargain on the M16's we supplied to the S Vietnamese army: never fired and dropped only once. Also makes me think of how well supplied ISIS has become with US weapons and equipment. As we say in the oil patch: there is the well designed plan...and then there's what actually happens. LOL.

[Tanada]

The government of the United States is manned by thugs. At least the educated involved citizens still have a voice of sorts.

Evidence?

That we have a voice? You can always post a robo-email to your representative. If you refer to our thuggery you might want to consider Iraq.

I pretty much gave up writing my Representatives and Senators once I realized the only response I ever received was a form letter. I might have a 'voice' technically speaking seems how I didn't get hassled for writing them about my concerns, but I didn't get a meaningful response either.