[onlooker]

OS, Greece is not exactly living the good life under the lending model is it? We are not talking about buying house or going to University, Greece is struggling just to employ, house and feed people. So your argument is continue with the same. My argument is for Greece and others to quit the system and try something different. If your Greece and many other countries you have nothing to lose and maybe you will bring down an unjust and inequitable system. Have the people of South America, Africa and other places benefited from this system? Get back to me when you have done an honest appraisal of that question.

[Outcast_Searcher]

OS, Greece is not exactly living the good life under the lending model is it? We are not talking about buying house or going to University, Greece is struggling just to employ, house and feed people. So your argument is continue with the same. My argument is for Greece and others to quit the system and try something different. If your Greece and many other countries you have nothing to lose and maybe you will bring down an unjust and inequitable system. Have the people of South America, Africa and other places benefited from this system? Get back to me when you have done an honest appraisal of that question.

So in your opinion it is an "unjust and inequitable system". Congratulations. You have a right to your opinion.

In my opinion, people (and countries) should pay their debts. (And as an American), I am as strident as ANY that a FIRST PRINCIPLE should be that under any non-emergency conditions:

1). America should run balanced budgets.

2). Long term, surpluses should pay for repaying ALL our debt. Thus, in normal times, I think we should run a meaningful surplus. (And if this means less programs or higher taxes than party X wants, so be it).

And by the way, how are you magically going to help the fate of poor countries in Africa by Greece not paying its debts? (Thoughts of unicorns and fairies in some far distant time by some unproven wish have no credibility with me, BTW).

[onlooker]

Anything that weakens the political-economic system revolving around money will automatically help the disenfranchised and poor. So yes pardoning the debt of Africa cannot but help Africa. But I think you and me are in difference realms. You find it seems the system acceptable, i do not.

[Quinny]

The system was close to collapse in 2007/8, not much has changed since then. A grexit could be a tipping point, though I personally believe TPTB will attempt to use Greece as a whipping boy to stem the rise of leftist parties like Podemos in spain. They may manage to avoid collapse for the time being, but it is inevitable in the medium term.

[Cid_Yama]

It wasn't just close, it collapsed. It was only the agreement among bankers and insurers that everyone pretend that derivatives hold the same value as before the crash and that no one attempt to trade them, that the system continued. They had lost everything. Those in power remained in power and maintained their ...level of inequality... with everyone else, because they decided that was the way it would be. They showed money to be nothing but chit for the masses. Non-real. They held the power and still determined who has access to resources and who does not. It showed the economic system for the sham that it is.

They did not lose because they lost, they just declared everything was the same as before for them. And by the way, all you workers, you lost everything and are required to continue to be economic slaves.

[onlooker]

thanks Cid for your continued enlightening posts, I have really learned from them.

[Cid_Yama]

Greece referendum kills bailout deal hopes says EU
Tsipras tells the Troika they can stick their deal where the sun don't shine.

Angry eurozone ministers said Greece's shock decision Saturday to hold a referendum on its bailout had closed the door on the chances of a deal to save Athens from default and a possible euro exit.

The most dramatic day in the five-month crisis saw long lines of people queueing at cash machines in Greece after the announcement by leftist Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras amid fears of a bank run and possible capital controls. In Greece's second city, Thessaloniki, some banks have run out of money, according to an AFP reporter, while a National bank branch had a queue of 50 people.

The Greek government's immediate priority on Monday will to be to keep the country's banks open.

Greece will vote on July 5 on the outcome of negotiations with its international creditors that have dragged on since January, when Tsipras's Syriza party first took power on a promise of ending austerity.

As the Eurogroup of eurozone finance ministers held a crunch meeting in Brussels, their Dutch leader Jeroen Dijsselbloem said he was "very negatively surprised" by the Greek referendum decision.

Germany's hardline pro-austerity finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said the Greek government had "ended the negotiations unilaterally."

Greece was stunned by the referendum announcement by radical leader Tsipras, which came just hours after he had been at a summit with European leaders in a bid to end the crisis.

"The people must decide free of any blackmail," the 40-year-old prime minister said in a televised address to the nation late on Friday.

"We were asked to implement austerity measures... deregulation of the labour market, pension cuts, and an increase in VAT on food products, aiming towards the humiliation of an entire people," Tsipras said in his address.

The Eurogroup will now also be discussing worst case scenarios, ranging from a Greek default next week to a possible exit from the eurozone, which would shake the European post-war project to its foundations.

link


Note the story used the term 'radical leader' instead of Prime Minister, his elected office title. And in the one place they used his title they preceded it with 'leftist' like a negative epithet.

They also claimed Greece was 'stunned' by the announcement of the Referendum. Maybe the EU leaders were stunned, but the Greek people were celebrating in the streets. This leader did not sell them up the river behind closed doors. He threw it open for the people to decide, knowing full well what their answer will be. And the Troika also knows what their answer will be.

Everyone, whether they admit it or not, knew that Greece would default on the IMF unless the ECB paid it for them out of the money that Greece overpaid them. The ECB stonewalled them about it, hoping to pressure Greece to accede to the austerity demands. But Greece wasn't bluffing.

Greece defaults on June 30th. The Eurozone Revolution begins July 5th. For the Greeks, July 5th will be their Independence Day. A 'colony' of the Euro-Overlords breaking free and declaring their independence from an unfair economic system geared against them.

[onlooker]

Oh truly a celebration for what is left of democracy. A bright day in the darkness. "Radical leader" yea, cause he wants people to decide their own fate. Power to the people.

[Cid_Yama]

Give more power to the People

For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people

There's some people up there hoggin' everything
Tellin' lies, givin' alibis about the peoples, money an' things
An' if they gonna throw it away, might as well give some to me
Yeah, they seen an' heard it but never had misery

There are some people who are starvin' to death
Never knew but only heard 'em an' they never had happiness
If you don't have enough to eat, how can you think of love?
You don't have time to care, so it's crime you're guilty of

For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people
For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?

Cut this jive an' see who's got the power to kill the most
When they run out of power, the world's gonna be a ghost
They know we're not satisfied, so we begin to holler
They give us a promise an' throw in a few more dollars

There's no price for happiness, there's no price for love
Up goes the price of livin' an' you're right back where you was
So whatever you got, just be glad you got it
Now we're gonna get on up an' get some more of it

For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people
For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?

For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people
For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?
For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people
For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?

For God's sake, got to have it, more power
For God's sake, got to have it, power, power, power
For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?
For God's sake, you better give more power to the people

For God's sake, why don't you try it? Yeah, power, power
For God's sake, can't deny it, no, no, no, power, power
For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?
For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people

For God's sake, why don't you give more power to the people?
For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people
For God's sake, why don't you give power, power?
For God's sake, you got to give

[Outcast_Searcher]

Anything that weakens the political-economic system revolving around money will automatically help the disenfranchised and poor. So yes pardoning the debt of Africa cannot but help Africa. But I think you and me are in difference realms. You find it seems the system acceptable, i do not.

So in your world, you think a complex global economic system can run that feeds, houses, clothes, heats/cools, heals, transports, etc 7+ billion people -- and it will all happen without any form of money?

Let me guess. Everyone will just hold hands and sing songs and vote for the far left, and it will "just happen" by government decree? Because the USPS, big city DMV's, the military, and the clownfest on Capitol Hill are such tremendous models of efficiency? (Different details, similar issues in other countries).

I don't think the current system is great, but random wishful thinking would be a lot worse -- unless your goal is to see many billions starve, etc. (Yeah I know -- doomer porn).

[onlooker]

thanks Cid. Now this:
The Great Dictator's Speech
I’m sorry, but I don’t want to be an emperor. That’s not my business. I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone - if possible - Jew, Gentile - black man - white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other’s happiness - not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way.

Greed has poisoned men’s souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost....

!/images/photos/0000/0874/Great_Dictator_Pub_140-6_normal.jpg! The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men - cries out for universal brotherhood - for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world - millions of despairing men, women, and little children - victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people.

To those who can hear me, I say - do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed - the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish. .....

Soldiers! don’t give yourselves to brutes - men who despise you - enslave you - who regiment your lives - tell you what to do - what to think and what to feel! Who drill you - diet you - treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don’t give yourselves to these unnatural men - machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines! You are not cattle! You are men! You have the love of humanity in your hearts! You don’t hate! Only the unloved hate - the unloved and the unnatural! Soldiers! Don’t fight for slavery! Fight for liberty!

In the 17th Chapter of St Luke it is written: “the Kingdom of God is within man” - not one man nor a group of men, but in all men! In you! You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.

Then - in the name of democracy - let us use that power - let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world - a decent world that will give men a chance to work - that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will!

Dictators free themselves but they enslave the people! Now let us fight to fulfil that promise! Let us fight to free the world - to do away with national barriers - to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men’s happiness. Soldiers! in the name of democracy, let us all unite!

[AgentR11]

Must stock up on popcorn. Looks like they mean it this time!
Question is... will Twitter's internet connections melt.

[onlooker]

Must stock up on popcorn. Looks like they mean it this time!
Question is... will Twitter's internet connections melt.

The other question is who will follow?

[Withnail]

Glory to Greece. Glory to the heroes.

Smash the EU.

[Cid_Yama]

Yanis Varoufakis speaks

"We explained to my colleagues why we could not accept the institututions proposals. Briefly, it had to do with three fundamental issues: the prior actions which were seriously recessionary and redistributive, redistributing burdens from those who could and should bear them, to those who cannot".

Second was the financing of the next five months was "technically inadequate, the numbers did not add up" and "baked in" a new program by providing new loans from the EFSF.

"We explained that we didn't have a mandate to sign a non-viable unsustainable agreement."

"The real reason for the impasse is because our suggestion, from the moment that we were elected that we try and find common ground to build an agreement....but ever since Feb 20 the other side have been trying to drag us back into the MoU. We can have any agreement we want as long as it is the MoU." (The original imposed Austerity agreement)

From Gasmon's link. As I said back on the 1st, the Troika were blinded by their own ideology and thought they were about to win. They gambled and they lost. Now lets see if they cave over the next couple days. Greece has already refused another extension. They are more than happy to go it without the EU or the Euro.

They either release the funds to Greece no strings attached or Greece is gone. Hell, with the referendum, it may be too late and Greece is already on it's new path.

The one card the EU still has to play, if they choose to play it out, is to not assist the Greek banks prior to the referendum. Try to crash the Greek financial system prior to the vote to put the fear in the Greek people. I do not believe that will work, as Greece has been stockpiling money over the last month. They planned ahead for this.

As I understand it, the Greek Government is pumping cash into the Greek banks prior to Monday morning.

From the moment the talks broke down, Western Media has been trying to start a run on the Greek banks.

[dolanbaker]

So the referendum is still going ahead, well at this stage the troika have gone as far as they are willing to go towards Greece's position, unless Syriza completely U-turns That's all folks!
The referendum gives the Greek voters a stark choice, to reject a deal that (no longer exists) and go for near certain Grexit or accept and hope the deal is resurrected.
I would imagine if Syriza got a NO and were evicted "from the big brother house" the troika would start all over with any future Greek government, they have too much to lose if Greece goes into a full default.

The Troika are banking on a change of government in Greece.

[radon1]

Anything that weakens the political-economic system revolving around money will automatically help the disenfranchised and poor.

No one forces anyone into this system. Everyone is free to quit this system whenever they please. The question is, what to do next once you are out of this system? Perhaps, write another post?

[Quinny]

Not so sure dolan - It seems to me they might be intending using Greece to set an example in an attempt to stem support for the left in other EU countries. If Greece manages to get through with support from 'allies' though it could backfire. Podemos must make the germans very nervous!

[davep]

Anything that weakens the political-economic system revolving around money will automatically help the disenfranchised and poor.

No one forces anyone into this system. Everyone is free to quit this system whenever they please. The question is, what to do next once you are out of this system? Perhaps, write another post?

It's funny how the US/UK Central Banking system became very popular after WWII, and how countries who didn't conform became pariah states. But of course, no one is forcing them.

So, before we talk about quitting the system, here's a primer from the Bank of England on what the system actually is http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneycreation.pdf. Basically, banks create money as debt. It's a system that needs growth to pay off the interest element, and is therefore not sustainable in a finite world. It's responsible for "business cycles" as banks get too lax with credit and then close the money supply valves.

What to do once you leave this system has been described by, e.g. the IMF https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2012/wp12202.pdf. It's about removing the link between money creation and credit, and describes the transition period to 100% reserves.

There is an Icelandic proposal to do just that http://www.forsaetisraduneyti.is/media/Skyrslur/monetary-reform.pdf and there have been some interesting comments http://positivemoney.org/2015/04/economists-saying-icelands-sovereign-money-proposal/ including the Financial Times:

Having decided against scrapping its currency, the government in Reykjavik now mulls a complete ban on its banks creating krona when they issue new loans…In recent years Scandinavian central bankers have shown the same dauntless appetite for exploration that once saw Nordic ships fan out across the globe. In this spirit Reykjavik should give sovereign money a shot. Nations far bigger and meaner than Iceland have struggled to come to grips with financial excess through conventional means. As well as showing other countries a potential way forward, by bringing the axe down on fractional reserve banking the Icelanders might just regain some control over their economic destiny.

and this interesting snippet from Reuters:

Radical bank reform is mostly endorsed by academics, commentators and crackpots. So it is certainly worth taking note when a senior person in a real government calls for a top-to-bottom makeover of banks and the monetary system…Still, the Sigurjonsson plan is a plausible blueprint for better banking and Iceland is a good place to start. The population may be embittered enough to try something new and the established global powers of banking would probably tolerate an experiment in this miniature economy.