[ROCKMAN]

Cid - Too bad the Greek politicians weren't as smart as you and CHOSE to enter such a bad deal. But, then again, that would be blaming the "victim" for the bad decisions THEY made. But that can easily be fixed now: just default on those unfair debts, drop out of the EU and become a free country once again so they can "use the tools of wages, prices, currency valuation and tariffs to control their own trade balance."

Problem solved.

[Outcast_Searcher]

So stop with the Conservative, "The Greeks are lazy bums" meme.

Well you got one concept right. Expecting people to work for a living or pay their debts instead of demanding something for nothing -- yup, that's a conservative concept and apparently an anti-Greek concept.

If only purple unicorns would feed and take care of us all, instead of demanding that the successful people do it, and then calling life unfair if incomes aren't precisely equal.

Greek pensions are a thicket of confusion. This is a blog posting, not a print article, so I have only been Googling this rather than making a dozen calls, but according to this conference paper, civil servants in Greece employed before 1992 can retire after 35 years service, if they have reached 58, and retire on 80% of their final basic salary. That certainly sounds a great deal more generous than similar civil service schemes in Germany, which seem to insist on 40 years of service, and set the pensions rates in the low 70% range of final basic salaries.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlema ... s_pensions

Yes, heaven help the Greeks if they need to adjust their pension scheme to reflect the fact that their country took on nearly 200% of their GDP in debt. My pension at the supposedly generous IBM was for under 25% of my final salary. Why is anything approaching 80% necessary? (Oh I know, it would be "unfair" to have them save and invest 10% of their salary during their career).

And of course, it's SO grossly unfair and just MEAN, to expect people to pay their taxes, when expecting generous programs like the Greek pension scheme.

The OECD estimated in August 2009 that the size of the Greek grey market to be around €65bn (equal to 25% of GDP), resulting each year in €20bn of unpaid taxes.[12] This was in comparison almost twice as big as the German black market (estimated to 15% of GDP).[13]

Yes, it's clearly all mean old productive Germany's problem, for lending them money.

Cid, if you ran things micro-economics would be wishful-thinkingnomics. Since we'd still live in caves, it would have helped the BAU growth problem though.

[dissident]

Cid - Too bad the Greek politicians weren't as smart as you and CHOSE to enter such a bad deal. But, then again, that would be blaming the "victim" for the bad decisions THEY made. But that can easily be fixed now: just default on those unfair debts, drop out of the EU and become a free country once again so they can "use the tools of wages, prices, currency valuation and tariffs to control their own trade balance."

Problem solved.

Well, they are about to CHOOSE to leave. And F*ck the EU in the words of Nuland.

Cid is right, conservatives love to blame the victim. The hate oozes from every pore.

[Lore]

Cid is right, conservatives love to blame the victim. The hate oozes from every pore.

Serious question, I wonder why that is when it often backfires against their own interests?

[dissident]

Cid is right, conservatives love to blame the victim. The hate oozes from every pore.

Serious question, I wonder why that is when it often backfires against their own interests?

I don't think it is rational thought. It is knee-jerk feel good BS. There is a reason why most academics are "leftists". They tend to think rationally and not emotionally. Understanding gives rise to pragmatism. Primitive "thought" gives rise to prejudice and hate.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Cid is right, conservatives love to blame the victim. The hate oozes from every pore.

Serious question, I wonder why that is when it often backfires against their own interests?

I don't think it is rational thought. It is knee-jerk feel good BS. There is a reason why most academics are "leftists". They tend to think rationally and not emotionally. Understanding gives rise to pragmatism. Primitive "thought" gives rise to prejudice and hate.

Right. It could NEVER be that academics, such as overpaid university professors and administrations, would lean toward the party which helps them feather their own nest, now would it?

By all means, let's not think about economic logic or consequences - liberals are essentially incapable of that. After all, it would fly in the face of their ideas of "fairness" and redistributionism.

Instead, be sure and throw names at those you disagree with, like calling them prejudiced and haters. (Like the liberals who claim the entire GOP is "racist", for example). Because that is actually an argument of substance.

[Lore]

Cid is right, conservatives love to blame the victim. The hate oozes from every pore.

Serious question, I wonder why that is when it often backfires against their own interests?

I don't think it is rational thought. It is knee-jerk feel good BS. There is a reason why most academics are "leftists". They tend to think rationally and not emotionally. Understanding gives rise to pragmatism. Primitive "thought" gives rise to prejudice and hate.

As good an answer as I've heard. That primitive thought and demonstration of hate is possibly then just a primal reaction to fear and negativity about ones self. Those who feel powerless seeking status and confirmation from those that have even less.

It's a bit ironic that the Greeks, who have given western civilization the start of so much, should be demonized for taking some of it back.

[ennui2]

(Like the liberals who claim the entire GOP is "racist", for example). Because that is actually an argument of substance.

Come on. You really think the GOP hasn't, in large part, set themselves up to earn these labels?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/us/ca ... .html?_r=0

it would fly in the face of their ideas of "fairness" and redistributionism.

And yet the GOP is a party of hypocrisy, on the one hand comprising of red states which pride themselves on the virtue of Christian charity, and yet promulgating trickle-down philosophies of "I'm alright Jack, keep your hands off of my stack."

The degree to which the GOP fights, tooth and nail, against Obamacare, or earlier battles against extending unemployement, shows their true colors. It's not some abstract check and balance against wealth-redistribution. It's just simple greed, especially since the GOP feed at the trough of big corporate donors.

And yet the GOP are experts at keeping their base mollified with rhetoric about the evils of wealth distribution, while laughing all the way to the bank.

[radon1]

Hopefully, the Greeks will be wise enough to accept a deal with the EU. At least, they've been good at getting something for nothing so far, which is a proof of their developed reasoning skills.

[kublikhan]

I don't think it is rational thought. It is knee-jerk feel good BS. There is a reason why most academics are "leftists". They tend to think rationally and not emotionally. Understanding gives rise to pragmatism. Primitive "thought" gives rise to prejudice and hate.

Dunno about that. I think there are plenty of nutjobs on both the right and the left. Look at some of the things said about globalresearch, the very source Cid used earlier.

Q: Is Global Research CA a reliable source of news?

A: Apparently not.
Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda.

Is Global Research CA a reliable source of news?

Or look at some of the articles they posted:

“HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction, capable of destabilising agricultural and ecological systems globally.”

The US military has developed advanced capabilities that enable it selectively to alter weather patterns. The technology, which is being perfected under the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP), is an appendage of the Strategic Defense Initiative – ‘Star Wars’. From a military standpoint, HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction, operating from the outer atmosphere and capable of destabilising agricultural and ecological systems around the world.

Weather Warfare: Beware the US Military’s Experiments with Climatic Warfare

This is not exactly what I would call a rational article, despite coming from a leftist academic.

[Cid_Yama]

Cid - Too bad the Greek politicians weren't as smart as you and CHOSE to enter such a bad deal. But, then again, that would be blaming the "victim" for the bad decisions THEY made.

When someone perpetrates a Ponzi scheme, they are a criminal. The fact that those that were taken in by the Con didn't recognize it for what it was, doesn't make them less the victim and does not excuse the criminal who perpetrated it.

That's the thing about Conservatives, they are always ready to forgive the crime (or pretend it's not criminal) and blame the victim. But like I said, blaming the victim takes the eyes off the perp. So it's a form of collusion.

I guess Conservatives believe ripping off the marks is just fine with them. The fact that they were taken in and got ripped off, just shows they didn't deserve what they had, or the fruits of their labors. The biggest thief wins.

That's their true colors, and what they are all about. There are no rules. No ethical considerations. There are winners and losers, and the losers deserve nothing. You get to keep whatever you can take and hold on to. No matter how you got it.

[Lore]

I believe you can find exceptions to just about anything in an attempt to dissprove a general trend.

[kublikhan]

I believe you can find exceptions to just about anything in an attempt to dissprove a general trend.

Of course. But it would help if such exceptions were not quoted here as an authoritative source

[Lore]

Cid - Too bad the Greek politicians weren't as smart as you and CHOSE to enter such a bad deal. But, then again, that would be blaming the "victim" for the bad decisions THEY made.

When someone perpetrates a Ponzi scheme, they are a criminal. The fact that those that were taken in by the Con didn't recognize it for what it was, doesn't make them less the victim and does not excuse the criminal who perpetrated it.

That's the thing about Conservatives, they are always ready to forgive the crime (or pretend it's not criminal) and blame the victim. But like I said, blaming the victim takes the eyes off the perp. So it's a form of collusion.

I guess Conservatives believe ripping off the marks is just fine with them. The fact that they were taken in and got ripped off, just shows they didn't deserve what they had, or the fruits of their labors. The biggest thief wins.

That's their true colors, and what they are all about.

When you believe that most of nature is your plum to suck dry then you have little compunction to consider your fellow humans.

[dissident]

Hopefully, the Greeks will be wise enough to accept a deal with the EU. At least, they've been good at getting something for nothing so far, which is a proof of their developed reasoning skills.

You really should take off your rose coloured glasses and move to the paradise that is the EU or North America and stop projecting your fantasies on it. Greece got screwed over and the perps that screwed it over are now trying to set all the rules as to how it deals with the consequences. Not surprisingly, the "remedy" being offered oh so generously by Brussels and its instruments of power is similar to what they foisted on Cyprus: more screw over.

Cid's post on the German racket involved in this case debunks all the ruminations about EU pragmatism and whitewashing of its dirty role in this whole affair. It was Greece that was robbed and not Germany. But the Germans act like they have been giving the Greeks vast amounts of welfare. This is a vicious, blood libel lie. It is rather obvious that over the last 20 years Germany has extracted more from Greece financially than it has given in return. Unlike stupid Russia which gave over $200 billion to Ukraine in welfare after 1991, Germany is not in the charity business and never was. Greece is finally catching on to the true nature of the EU.

[Cid_Yama]

Kub, you used a blog post and Rationalwiki as your authoritative source that global research was not authoritative.

RationalWiki was created by Conservapedia contributors that were disgruntled that they were no longer able to edit posts on Conservapedia. And we know how authoritative some blog posts are.

Please, give me a break.

Let me give you an example from your own source that were responses to the blog post you quoted.

The above text is directly lifted from rationalwiki... I too have questioned globalresearch.ca - I liked what i read on their site and wanted to find out how reliable they were. There´s not much said against them - except by rationalwiki... so I researched them too... They have a heavy bias themselves... it is their mission to debunk information on sites like globalresearch... they have an agenda - check for yourself... so I concluded that I couldn´t treat rationalwiki as a reliable source at all - so where does it end? - who can you trust these days, especially on the web? Seems to be impossible to find a truely non-biased source of news... just saying!

agree not all globalresearch.ca writers meet high scholarly or informed opinion standards, but the vast majority do. the site is a clearinghouse for many kinds of critical pol views, from the right and left. if i need quick access to left views in particular i search the site. dr paul craig roberts is routinely featured (a repub anti-fascist former reagan treas dept undersec) as is dr chossudovsky from the left, whose pol-ec views are unassailable from the left. whoever 'conspires' to trash the site as unworthy should look in the mirror first.

As for the Author of the paper I posted:

Takis Fotopoulos is a political philosopher, editor of Society & Nature/Democracy and Nature/The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy. He has also been a columnist for the Athens Daily Eleftherotypia since 1990. He is also the author of numerous books in Greek on development; the Gulf War; the neo-liberal consensus; the New World Order; the drug culture; the New Order in the Balkans; the new irrationalism; globalization and the Left; the war against “terrorism”; His latest book in Greek is Greece as a protectorate of the transnational elite: The need for an immediate exit from the EU and for a self-reliant economy (Athens: Gordios, November 2010). He is also the author of over 1,000 articles in British, American and Greek theoretical journals, magazines and newspapers, several of which have been translated into over twenty languages. His latest book is :Subjugating the Middle East. Integration into the New World Order (Progressive Press, 2014)

His paper was fully annotated.

[dissident]

When they have no case then they just engage in ad hominem attacks aka shoot the messenger. Anyone who questions the one way street aspect of free trade between countries of different economic development levels is either and idiot or malicious.

I want to see the detailed accounting of how many billions Greece has received in EU welfare and how much value was extracted from Greece by various entities including German ones. These debates are always so retarded when the basic facts are ignored. Show me the money.

The GDP of Greece was $355 billion in 2008. Its foreign debt was 105% of GDP at the time. This is very close to the ratio of many so-called stable western economies. The hysteria over Greece has helped to drive up its refinancing costs and create a run on investments. Its economy has shrunk significantly since 2008 while its debt burden has increased partly due to higher interest applied to it and partly because the government is experiencing a severe decline in tax revenues and cannot handle both the debt servicing and the social costs. The obvious solution is to put its debt servicing on ice for as long as it takes. If it takes 20 years to get out of the hole then so be it. But instead we have demands from the EU racketeers that Greece should put full priority to servicing the debt. This just digs the whole deeper. The racketeers are certifiable retards.

[kublikhan]

Cid, Dissent - The chief editor of Global Research is posting articles on his site that HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction. Am I the only one here who might stop and ask, "Hmm, maybe I should not use this as a source?"

[ennui2]

The chief editor of Global Research is posting articles on his site that HAARP is a weapon of mass destruction. Am I the only one here who might stop and ask, "Hmm, maybe I should not use this as a source?"

Global Research is all-tinfoil all-the-time. Unfortunately people here only want to second guess the validity of MSM, not tinfoil sites.

[Cid_Yama]

What an author writes reflects on the author alone. I've always assumed HAARP was tinfoil, but that is a personal bias, as I have not read anything about nor looked into it. I cannot judge because I personally don't know anything about it.

I don't go by what other people think. Or how many people think it. Many people think Climate Change is tinfoil. But only those who haven't really looked into it, or have a political bias. So who am I to judge? Have you done any research on HAARP? Or are you like me and don't know one way or another? Just assume because others have said it's tinfoil.

Since he is the Founder, Director, I guess he can post whatever he wants. But that doesn't discredit anything anyone else writes. He's an Economics professor in Ottawa. He's also served on several prestigious boards around the world. Some people can be totally authoritative in their field of study, but still be a loon about some topic. Not saying he is, as I don't know anything about it, and an uninformed opinion is worthless.

Obviously you are going the long way around to try to discredit a paper written by someone else, who is not a loon and has credentials up the ass. Just because he posted a paper on a site that also hosted a paper by someone else that might or might not be tinfoil.(published in 1997 by the way, we don't know what his current views are on the subject, he has posted nothing more about it.)

Apparently those familiar with the website find it very credible. And it has extremely high readership worldwide.

Global Research: one of the leading independent media websites in North America and internationally

According to Alexa, the web ranking agency, Global Research is ranked among the top 10000 most popular websites Worldwide (all categories) out of a Worldwide total of more than 510 million active websites. It is among the top 9,500 websites (all categories) in the US.

While Global Research operates on a shoe string budget compared to the well-endowed establishment think tanks, it is more popular –in terms of its “Global Rank”– with substantially more readers than the powerful Council on Foreign Relations (CFR at cfr.org).