[onlooker]

Its economy has shrunk significantly since 2008 while its debt burden has increased partly due to higher interest applied to it and partly because the government is experiencing a severe decline in tax revenues and cannot handle both the debt servicing and the social costs.

Exactly! But even more so the whole debt-loan world-wide system has at this point essentially bankrupted the entire planet. Their is so much debt out there without any chance of being repaid. The ruse is like a ponzi scheme in that as long as players keep up the illusion the game goes on. Cashing in the debt would expose everyone. The next best thing for the powerful countries and banks is to try and slowly bleed countries with debt and interest. Here is a wonderful synopsis of all this:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Governme ... 0Truth.htm

[Plantagenet]

the whole debt-loan world-wide system has at this point essentially bankrupted the entire planet.

No need to get hysterical over this.

Greece defaulting on their debts won't destroy the global economy any more then Argentina defualting on their debts a few years ago destroyed the global economy, or Iceland defaulting on their debts a few years before that destroyed the global economy.

Greece is a tiny country. Its entire debt is just a fraction of the amount of US debt created each year under Obama.

[onlooker]

Plant, did you read the article I linked. I was not referring to just the Greek situation but the entire planet and how debt has become more and more untenable. It is a charade now, no realistic prospects exist for countries, corporations or banks to pay back these loans. Our only solution has been to make things worse by making more loans. Within all this how can Greece disengaging be a bad thing. I have nothing per say against credit but it all has become too much and too burdensome upon all involved.

[Plantagenet]

no realistic prospects exist for countries, corporations or banks to pay back these loans.

Of course the loans will be paid back. But in less valuable current dollars.

For over two thousand years countries have debased their currencies to pay back loans.

The same strategy is being used now in the G7 countries. As the dollar/euro/yen loses value, it becomes easier to pay back loans denominated in these currencies.

[kublikhan]

Cid - That article was not written in 1997 it was in 2007. Also, he just reposted it on globalresearch last June. So unless his views have undergone a massive swing this past year I think it's safe to say he still thinks this way. And from just a quick browsing of that site he does not seem to have moderated it's tinfoil and hyperbole articles. Just on the first page there are articles on electromagnetic mind control and headlines of "Washington calls for the Destruction of Syria".

Website popularity does not make it a credible news source. Tinfoil Alex Jones is ranked 3,160 on Alexa. Quite a bit higher than globalresearch's ranking of 14,220.

How popular is infowars.com?
Global Rank: 3,160

How popular is infowars.com?

How popular is globalresearch.ca?
Global Rank: 14,220

How popular is globalresearch.ca?

As for my research into HAARP, I have done a bit of research on it. Enough to make me think that the theories that HAARP is responsible for earthquakes, mind control, climate change, etc are all tinfoil BS.

And I was not going the long way around to discredit the author. I was actually taking the short path of checking out the website by clicking on it's homepage. There, I saw headlines on electronic mind control and how Washington wants to blow up Syria. This set off alarm bells for me so I dug a little deeper on the site. What I found did not make me want to put this site in the "very credible" category. I put it in the tinfoil category.

[Cid_Yama]

You must be looking someplace totally different because I'm only seeing political and economic articles.

link

The paper I refered to is factual and verifiable.

Whether this website has some tinfoil on it somewhere(which is not immediately obvious), or just has articles that gets your rankles up because you are a conservative, and choose to call it tinfoil, is irrelevant.

[kublikhan]

Cid - That was the same page I was looking at. Since you apparently couldn't see the ticker on the page I'll just link to it for you:
Electromagnetic and Informational weapons: The Remote Manipulation of the Human Brain

As to your suggestion that is is not immediately obvious that this is tin foil material, lets first look at the definition:

A tin foil hat is a hat made from one or more sheets of aluminium foil, or a piece of conventional headgear lined with foil, worn in the belief it shields the brain from threats such as electromagnetic fields, mind control, and mind reading.

Tin foil hat

So a tin foil hat is a device used to protect against electromagnetic mind control. And the ticker on the home page of this website has an article about electromagnetic mind control. Sounds like tinfoil material to me. I'm not sure how much more obvious you can get.

So you think I'm conservative huh? According to Outcast_Searcher I'm a liberal.

[Cid_Yama]

Oh, I agree that one fits both the literal and figurative definition of tinfoil. Still doesn't make any of your argument relevant.

[kublikhan]

I think we have debated enough about citations and sources and tinfoil, let us return to the subject at hand. Did you read section 3 of the paper you quoted? It talks about how a grexit from the Euro will not be a sufficient solution to Greece's woes.

Even a Greek exit from the Euro and a devaluation of the drachma that will be re-introduced in its aftermath, could only have temporary effects on Greek competitiveness, unless mass investment in its productive structure takes place at the same time, which is far from guaranteed in an internationalized market economy.
..
It is obvious to me that today, this Left is no less millenarian than the integrated into the system “Left”, and as such is equally useless to the victims of globalization, who every day lose even more their hope for any better future, many of them increasingly resorting to suicide.

This author paints a pretty bleak picture for Greece's future even if it leaves the Euro. I hope he's wrong.

[Cid_Yama]

Contagion strikes Italy, Spain, Portugal

Government borrowing costs in Europe's indebted southern countries shot up on Monday as investors began to worry that a vote in Greece could see it become the first country to leave the euro currency bloc.

In glimpses of the contagion that roiled markets during Europe's 2011-2012 debt crisis, Italy, Spain and Portugal saw their 10-year bond yields rise sharply, while German equivalents -- seen as a safe haven in times of stress -- fell.

If Greece were to exit the euro zone it could raise the risk for investors that other heavily-indebted member states might follow suit.

link

Greece’s creditors have repeatedly insisted that European banks and global markets do not face any serious fallout from Greece abandoning the euro, as they have had plenty of time to insulate themselves from such an outcome.

Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, who served as the chief economist of the World Bank from 1997 to 2000, says no such firewall of protection can exist in a globalized economy, where the connections between events and institutions are often impossible to predict. “We don’t know all the linkings,” he says.

Many countries in Eastern Europe, for instance, are still heavily reliant on Greek banks, and if those banks collapse the European Union faces the risk of a chain reaction of financial turmoil that could easily spread to the rest of the global economy. “There is a lack of transparency in financial markets that makes it impossible to know exactly what the consequences are,” says Stiglitz. “Anybody who says they do obviously doesn’t know what they’re talking about.”

“They have criminal responsibility,” he says of the so-called troika of financial institutions that bailed out the Greek economy in 2010, namely the International Monetary Fund, the European Commission and the European Central Bank. “It’s a kind of criminal responsibility for causing a major recession,” Stiglitz tells TIME in a phone interview.

The cost-cutting was an enormous mistake, Stiglitz says, and it’s time for the creditors to admit it. Greece’s foreign creditors imposed a strict program of austerity. The Greek economy has shrunk by about 25% since 2010.

If the Greek economy recovers after abandoning the euro, it would “certainly increase the impetus for anti-euro politics,” encouraging other struggling economies to drop the common currency and go it alone. If the Greek economy collapses without the euro, “you have on the edge of Europe a failed state,” Stiglitz says. “That’s when the geopolitics become very ugly.”

By providing financial aid, Russia and China would then be able to undermine Greece’s allegiance to the E.U. and its foreign policy decisions, creating what Stiglitz calls “an enemy within.” There is no way to predict the long-term consequences of such a break in the E.U.’s political cohesion, but it would likely be more costly than offering Greece a break on its loans, he says.

link

[Cid_Yama]

Kub, Russia and China have already told Greece they are willing to make that investment. They have already signed several agreements.

post1235961.html#p1235961

post1243369.html#p1243369

Greece and Russia sign pipeline deal

Greece couldn't get a debt deal with Europe. So it went to Russia and signed a controversial gas deal instead!

Officials agreed Friday to build a pipeline that would bring Russian gas through Greece and into western Europe, Russian state media reported.

Greece's Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who was in St. Petersburg Friday, said, "I'm here because I believe that the role of a country that wants to explore its potential to succeed, [should] have a multi-dimensional policy in its relations with countries."

Russian energy minister Alexander Novak said the gas deal took the relationship between the two countries to "a new level."

Russia and Greece already share deep ties from culture and the Orthodox Church, to commerce. Russian tourists visit Greece in large numbers every year.

But they've been drawing even closer together since Greeks voted left-wing Syriza into power earlier this year.

The gas agreement is likely to irritate other European Union countries, who have been restricting trade with Russia over the Ukraine crisis and are trying to reduce their dependence on Russian gas.

According to a Russian report, the new gas pipeline -- which will bypass Ukraine -- will cost roughly two billion euros ($2.3 billion) and will be completed by 2019. The costs will be covered by Russia, with the understanding that Greece will repay its pipeline debts later.

Russia may offer Greece discounted gas. Greece could also earn revenue from gas transmission fees.

link

Russia has agreed to provide Greece payments for gas transmission fees in advance to help them through the transition.

[AgentR11]

Its not knowable until after a default, but it'll be interesting to see if Greece goes the full revolt option of trading with RusHan Inc. utilizing BRICS and Shanghai clearing. People say Greece has nothing but cheese and olive oil to sell internationally. I say they're dead wrong. Russia would love to lease a pier or two with logistical access in Greece; they'd probably pay a whole bunch of renminbi for it too, and I'd bet China'd be happy to sell stuff to Greece... in renminbi; and I'd bet Chinese managerial/operator class would love to vacation in Greece, and pay with their Union card...

Bigger picture..... Greece, Turkey, Cyrpus, Armenia, Azher, Iran... All with long histories of antagonism between them, all being squeezed over the last couple decades by an "our way or the highway" Germany/US; all may start seeing the writing on the wall that they can use RusHan Inc, to pry themselves loose without experiencing economic catastrophe. And RusHan Inc will be happy to be used in that way, as it finally grants them the true peace and security they've lacked in the Steppes forever.

Then RusHan Inc can have a discussion with India. About that ridiculous border they have with China. If that can be fixed diplomatically, like the Russia / China border; man, we sealed the deal for them on something we basically fought two world wars to prevent. There's no way India has failed to note how well Russia has been treated by China since settling those issues. It'll wear'em down, relentlessly. The position of a shack in the desert starts to really look like a shack in the desert after a while.

[SeaGypsy]

Doesn't that lead unavoidably to the US jumping in?

Sent from my HUAWEI Y320-U151 using Tapatalk

[AgentR11]

I don't see where we have a good *in* overtly; and a Greece "maidan" at this point would end up seriously anti-EU, even if they were also anti-Russian; yet they have to buy certain stuff either from RusHan Inc, or from the EU; and they'll only have the ability to pay for stuff from RusHan Inc.

Are we going to invade without a pretext at this point? Are we going to carry out airstrikes to prevent a referendum? I don't think so.

About the only viable sequence I can think of would be to maybe push Macedonia (FYROM) to do something and claim Greek aggression; but that's a huge flip-flop from the European side, and I don't think their electorate would so easily pivot...

[Cid_Yama]

Russia and Greece took a considerable step towards bolstering economic co-dependence on Friday, as the countries' energy ministers signed a deal on Friday to collaborate on the Turkish Stream underwater pipeline.

The agreement would set up a joint venture to extend the underwater pipeline to Europe through Greek territory. Construction will start next year and is expected to be completed by 2019, when it will begin delivering up to 47 billion cubic meters of gas a year.

"This is the start of a large investment project in Greece that is beneficial to the country's economy," Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak said at the signing ceremony, which took place on the sidelines of Russia's top economic summit on Friday.

Greece said funding for the project would come from Russian state development bank VEB. But its far from a selfless move on Moscow's part. Western sanctions over the conflict in Ukraine have crippled the Russian economy, and producers are scrambling to find alternative ways to deliver energy to the vital European market without going through their Ukrainian neighbor.

During Tsipras' last visit to Russia, Putin hailed the Turkish Stream extension as a transformational step for Greece, which he predicted would become a major gas transit hub.

link

Last week Greece reminded the EU they have a vote on the upcoming sanctions against Russia. To extend the sanctions the vote must be unanimous. Bye Bye Russian sanctions.

Tsipras has long stated he wanted Greece out of NATO, and I wouldn't be surprised if Greece and Turkey were the next to be offered SCO membership. This year it's India and Pakistan (and Iran if the nuclear deal is signed). Britain has already been trying to reignite animosities between the two to prevent it. A dangerous game since they both have nukes.

link

[Outcast_Searcher]

(Like the liberals who claim the entire GOP is "racist", for example). Because that is actually an argument of substance.

Come on. You really think the GOP hasn't, in large part, set themselves up to earn these labels?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/22/us/ca ... .html?_r=0

No, I don't, and I don't think anyone rational and objective would either.

See, the GOP isn't monolithic, any more than the Democrats are monolithic. Each party has a whole variety of people who look at various issues differently.

For example, do you really think that Log Cabin Republicans would agree with the segment of the GOP which continues (even after the vote of the supreme court) to want to ban gay marriage?

Or do you really think, for another example, that all Democrats are all about wealth redistribution and higher taxes as their primary goal? (If so, many Democrat environmentalists, women's rights activists, civil rights activists, etc. would almost certainly strongly disagree with you).

So, if you want to say that a certain group of far right wing "red neck" conservatives in the GOP are racists, based on past statements and actions -- I'd be the first to agree with you. However when you say the GOP has "earned" being called racist, I think you lose all credibility.

[radon1]

But the Germans act like they have been giving the Greeks vast amounts of welfare. This is a vicious, blood libel lie.

Poor Ukraine has about 70bln USD in debt over a 40+m population, while Greece has 300+ over 10m. Does not look like an epitome of poverty and deprivation.

In any event, who cares what is "right" and what is "wrong"? Does this really matter?

Far more important question is who is going to feed and shelter Greeks if they freak out with their protests and the EU at last decides to cut them from euros. It is probably nice to be hungry, cold, but "right".

In case they act reasonably, the reich and co would have to provide jobs for them in order to ensure that Greece is able to service its debt. In case they go it alone, they'll have to join the race to the bottom on their own, against Turkey, China, Indonesia, Bangladesh or whoever not.

The reich's banks holding the Greek debt may suffer badly, but the reich may reason that it is easier to bail out the banks rather than the "people and the people's power". Especially given that they are running their QE now, and are in a bad need for "subprime" assets to be used as collateral.

[Cid_Yama]

China is already a big investor in the Greek infrastructure, with state-owned COSCO having spent close to five billion euros to establish a presence at the country’s largest port, Piraeus.

In addition, the two countries have enjoyed close shipping ties, with Greek tycoons building ships in Chinese shipyards, and Chinese companies leasing them to carry resources into China, and goods out of China.

link

Future Headlines

Chinese Naval Base In The Mediterranean Sea?

During the Cold War, the United States did its best to make the Mediterranean unfriendly for the Soviet Navy. Their ships were closely monitored and towards the end of the Cold War a lone Victor Class submarine was the only credible naval presence maintained, aside from a few obsolete frigates generally docked in a Syrian port. When other forces outside this small package were deployed it was a big deal.

Today however, a NATO ally, Greece, is considering hosting a Chinese Naval base smack dab in the middle of the eastern Mediterranean. What the Chinese might dock there has not been disclosed, but it could be more robust than the normal Soviet deployments.

According to a recent report, the Prime Minister of Greece said that the possibility exists for joint naval operations between Greece and China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy. (The “Navy” is a subordinate arm under the PLA.) The Greek Prime Minister was reported to have told this to the visiting Chinese president on Rhodes. There is a possibility of cooperation, for example, in joint patrols of war ships.

This cozying up to the Chinese by the cash-strapped Greeks has been largely ignored by the US and NATO, but observers note that this development is most unwelcome among military professionals.

But the Greeks, who are no doubt receiving money from the Chinese for such a deal, envision even closer cooperation with the Chinese communist regime.

The Greek Prime Minister said, “I also want to say that I believe deeply in our relations of strategic partnership that will constantly expand, as your country’s presence at the forefront of the international stage also grows.” Such a statement of intent could be interpreted by some to call into question Greece’s commitment to NATO and is seen as evidence that China evinces a policy of intervention in European geopolitics.

The Chinese leader noted that his country is keen to build its relations with Greece, saying,“We want to make joint efforts, with the Greek side, to launch a new era in our bilateral relations in terms of the overall strategic partnership relations of Greece and China. Greece and China have a natural friendship and there are naturally very close feelings between them. We can say that Greece is the friendliest and most reliable country in Europe for China.”

This statement, praising Greece as the most friendly and reliable country in Europe for China, has more than a few eyebrows raised among military professionals from NATO countries. The truth is that Chinese and NATO interests diverge, in general, and for Greece to court the Chinese may jeopardize its standing in NATO, according to sources we have contacted.

link

Oh, that's right, this already happened a while back.


Greece Might Allow Russia to Use Its Military Bases

Greek Defense Minister Panos Kammenos is set to arrive in Moscow for a two day visit starting Wednesday. The visit will include a meeting with Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. Russian experts believe that Kammenos's meeting with his Russian counterpart might include the provision of spare parts for Russian weapons systems, including the S-300 air defense system, Kornet anti-tank missiles, and Zubr-class hovercraft. Last December, the Greek Defense Ministry signed contracts with Russia on the purchase of spare parts for the Top-M1 and Osa-AKM mobile air defense systems.

"The Tsipras visit held a great political importance. As for defense matters and Kammenos's visit, I believe that Greece must do everything it can to move closer to Russia on issues of defense, defense policy, technology, cooperation and defense diplomacy. Greece, as you know, is the only NATO country to which several advanced Russian defense systems were exported several years ago. The country's air defense is very largely based on Russian systems."

Iliopoulos believes that Kammenos may attempt to reach an agreement with Russia on the technical maintenance and modernization of the Russian weapons systems Greece possesses. The analyst notes that "this must be done urgently. These systems presently have serious issues, and not because of [any error from] the Russian side, but because the previous government simply used them and, under Western pressure, underestimated the importance of maintenance and modernization."

We must discuss seriously, rationally, and realistically the issue of Greece providing Russia with an opportunity to use Greek ground, sea and air bases, on the Aegean Sea and in the Dodecanese Islands, as well as the Ionian Sea and Corfu, the seven islands liberated by Admiral Fyodor Ushakov [during the Second World War]."

link

Oh, that's right, this just happened a couple months back.

I guess the future is now. Well NATO, how's it feel to have the shoe on the other foot for a change.

[Cid_Yama]

Greece will not pay IMF loan due on Tuesday: government official

Greece will not pay a 1.6 billon euro loan installment due to the International Monetary Fund on Tuesday, a Greek government official confirmed on Monday, highlighting the depth of the financial crisis facing the country.

Despite the shock of a default by a euro zone country, Greece's fate is likely to remain unchanged until after a snap referendum on July 5 on bailout terms presented by creditors in exchange for aid.

Euro zone policymakers have warned Greeks that a "no" vote against the aid package would be tantamount to a rejection of engagement with creditors and point toward a euro zone exit.

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