[Quinny]

Or maybe 'Beware of institutions offering loans?'

[americandream]

Thatcher .... Reagan....blah blah blah

Thatcher and Reagan have been out of office for over 30 years.

They aren't to blame for the current problems in Greece.

Cheers!

If conservatives are going to point the finger at bourgeoisie liberals for historical errors, then historical context is called for. The opening up of debt started with the deregulation of the financial sector and the deregulation of this sector was peddled by those two, worldwide, the same debt addiction that bedevils us today arose from that deregulation.

In addition it was the same economic deregulation which took the markets into retail desktop trading into which inexperienced joes are flocking in their droves to be fleeced.

[Plantagenet]

The opening up of debt started with the deregulation of the financial sector and the deregulation of this sector was peddled by those two, worldwide, the same debt addiction that bedevils us today arose from that deregulation.

Don't be silly.

Greece's inability to manage their finances wasn't caused by Reagan and Thatcher. Greece has a long history of going bankrupt--- Greece has run up huge debts and then gone bankrupt five separate times since the year 1800. By some estimates Greece has been in bankruptcy about half of the time since the Greek state was established.

Its just dumb to blame this current Greek bankruptcy on things Reagan and Thatcher said 30+ years ago, when the Greeks have shown over and over again that they are quite capable of borrowing too much money and mismanaging their economy and then going bankrupt all on their own.

Cheers!

[americandream]

The opening up of debt started with the deregulation of the financial sector and the deregulation of this sector was peddled by those two, worldwide, the same debt addiction that bedevils us today arose from that deregulation.

Don't be silly.

Greece's inability to manage their finances wasn't caused by Reagan and Thatcher. Greece has a long history of going bankrupt--- Greece has run up huge debts and then gone bankrupt five separate times since the year 1800. By some estimates Greece has been in bankruptcy about half of the time since the Greek state was established.

Its just dumb to blame this current Greek bankruptcy on things Reagan and Thatcher said 30+ years ago, when the Greeks have shown over and over again that they are quite capable of borrowing too much money and mismanaging their economy and then going bankrupt all on their own.

Cheers!

Capitalism is cyclical with booms and busts periodically. To blame the Greeks for their predicament on some unique cultural or genetic propensity is about as absurd as one can get. Greece has long been on the extreme fringe of capitalist service and any bouts of socialised spending were embedded in the consumerist philosophies periodically peddled by pushers such as Thatcher. To blame the eccesses of infinite accumulati,n on circular economics of which Greece has never been engaged with is silliness of the uninformed kind.

Debt is a function of capitalistic accumulation. Even your pretend capitalist sentiments should at least extend that far in terms of basic salesmanship.

If your are going to act as spokesman for capitalism; at least do me the favour of making sense.

[Peak_Yeast]

The politicians and bankers will always lie to the people and the press if anything can be won by doing it...

We have had a few cases recently here in Denmark... And the lies were discovered...So the supreme court INVENTED a new definition of lying - which were acceptable (even though the law says that ministers must inform the parliament truthfully and also completely.

The new definition of lying is :"Nødløgn" - translated directly it means "emergency lie".

And that seems to be legal...

I wonder if that is also legal for the ordinary citizens that has to leave home and family due to bankruptcy - can they make emergency lies to for example avoid taxation - so they can save their life?

I think not !!

Napoleon the pig was right.. Some are MUCH more equal than others.

Also we just had an election where the (criminal) party called "Venstre" got the power again. They were the ones that got us into the Iraq and Afghanistan war - so that our prime minister could be Secretary General in NATO - he left his post before time for this job.

The first thing the new government did was to CANCEL the invenstigations put down by the previously ruling parties into the Iraqi and afghani wars. The current prime minister is a henchman of Anders Fogh Rasmussen - which were the one to lie to the danish parliament and btw. breaking the constitution - since Denmark cant be in wars with countries that has not attacked us.

It has also been discovered that supreme courth judges adviced him that the case could be postponed and drawn out for such a long time that it would be ...i dont know the word.. but too old to be put into court.

So much for the least "corrupt" country in the world... The only reason for that is that the whole system is corrupted or that corruption has been legalized.

I need an atomic grade angry smilie !!!!!

[Timo]

Will Greece default?

Yes.

Next question.

[Plantagenet]

To blame the Greeks for their predicament ...is ... absurd

To not honestly acknowledge that Greek governments and Greek voters and Greek banks have made bad decisions is absurd.

Cheers!

[Fishman]

"Socialised spending if any, merely served as the foundation on which all of this activity could occur." I'll take that admission on your part. Then there's Puerto Rico, same issue, Chicago, same issue.
See Plant, blaming Greeks for what they voted for, what they did to themselves violates a basic liberal precept, you're not accountable for your actions, you're always a victim, and the government has the best knowledge of how to spend your money. - til it all fails

[Outcast_Searcher]

Capital controls in Greece are limiting people to 60 euros per day. Which isn't a lot, considering people need to pay all their bills with that and feed themselves.

Elderly pesnioners are having to go from ATM to ATM to try to find one that works, and has money in it.

Wall street crashing.. Asian markets crashing.. doesn't look good.

Gee Six, what a fount of misinformation you are.

As I pointed out above (yesterday) per a Bloomberg article I gave a link for, the 60 Euros is only the cash portion and only for Greek citizens. But, as I pointed out, the credit system is still working, including credit cards. So it's NOT like people can't pay their bills OR like they all have to "live on 60 Euros a day". (Now, if the economy implodes due to a Grexit, clearly that could change).

Well, as I pointed out, pensions are still being paid to the pensioners. And again, the credit system is working. To the extent the ATM's run out of cash, pensioners have exactly the same issue everyone else does. All the reports I've seen show the ATM's get refilled, so the "out of cash" situations are temporary.

Today (Tuesday) neither Wall Street or the Asian markets are "crashing". Wall Street is fairly flat and Asian markets are strong overall.

What's the point of posting stuff that's clearly false or badly distorted? Are you resorting to the "echo chamber of constant doom" style of posting?

[Plantagenet]

... pensions are still being paid to the pensioners.

Except the banks are closed, so they can't cash their pension checks.

But don't worry---the Greek government thinks of everything! If they don't change their minds again, at the current time the leftists running Greece will allow some banks to reopen on for a few hours on Wednesday or maybe Thursday or at the latest on Friday to allow elderly pensioners to cash their checks.

[Timo]

The entirety of Greek government bureaucracy is incredibly, overwhelmingly corrupt. The only reason anything ever gets done in Greece is due to personal bribes to the government holder of whatever permit or stamp is necessary to accomplish anything. Corruption is great for the individuals playing the game, but in the end, it brings the entire government down. Revenues are siphoned off to line the pockets of those who do the work, and not to fund the government. I have no doubts that the same thing is responsible for the fiscal chaos in Puerto Rico. Plus, they have an overwhelming drug trafficking problem that's been allowed to operate and displace legal, income producing occupations for over a decade. An acquaintance from Greece that i see from time to time told me over a year ago just how bad government corruption was in his country. It's a wonderful place to visit, but i have to side with Merkel on this. Sort-of. Forced nation-wide austerity will only make the problems worse. Jail for the offenders, plus heavy fines to dissuade their replacements, i honestly believe, is the only thing that will save Greece's sorry ass from fiscal oblivion. That remedy will take decades to heal their present wounds. Needless to say, no one in Greece will vote for that option, so the default position is to default their position in the EU.

And as goes Greece, so goes France, and Italy, and Iceland, and Great Britain, and Spain.

The EU is toast. Germany is doing quite well for itself, but that nation alone cannot sustain 20 different, and unequal economies. The EU was a good idea, but has proven itself to be an unfunctional concept. Time to move on, and let nature take its course.

"Nature," by the way, is the Economic Overshoot Predator, aka, Darwin's Law of Survival of the Fittest. Greece has failed to evolve a modern, clean, functioning economy.

[Outcast_Searcher]

... pensions are still being paid to the pensioners.

Except the banks are closed, so they can't cash their pension checks.

But don't worry---the Greek government thinks of everything! If they don't change their minds again, at the current time the leftists running Greece will allow some banks to reopen on for a few hours on Wednesday or maybe Thursday or at the latest on Friday to allow elderly pensioners to cash their checks.

Right. So in the modern world we should expect that pensions are paid with paper checks. Just like all social security recipients are paid by paper check in the US. (NOT)

It was hard to find a definitive answer to this, but by all means, let's assume the worst.

Trying to search on relevant terms, I found this article:

http://www.startribune.com/greece-await ... 310439651/

The implication is that aside from irresponsible people who ignored all the news and made NO preparation (like getting cash OR a banking card) that this isn't an issue.

As the clock ran out on a Greece deal, Greeks were handed a daily 60 euros ($67) cash withdrawal limit, sending crowds of elderly depositors who do not have ATM cards rushing to closed bank branches.

"I came here at 4 a.m. because I have to get my pension," said 74-year-old Anastasios Gevelidis, one of about 100 retirees waiting outside the main branch of the National Bank of Greece in the country's second-largest city of Thessaloniki.

"I don't have a card. I don't know what's going on. We don't even have enough money to buy bread," he said.

(Now, I know, this is all the evil GOP's fault (as usual), led by Ronald Reagan and all, but the level of cluelessness here, given what is happening in Greece, is astounding.)

OTOH, as I have been saying, at this point the credit system is just fine for credit cards and paying bills within Greece.

Electronic transfers and bill payments are allowed, but only within Greece. The government also stressed the controls would not affect foreign tourists, who would have no limits on cash withdrawals with foreign bank cards.

[Fishman]

"Trillions Spent, but Crises Like Greece’s Persist" New York Times today. Further proof of the failure by socialism and the total lack of insight on their part. Cause and effect

[Lore]

The failure of Greece is a result of its institutions. Not that of socialism.

[Quinny]

So it was a Socialist Government who borrowed all the money?

Like George Osborne who has borrowed more than every Labour Government in history!

"Trillions Spent, but Crises Like Greece’s Persist" New York Times today. Further proof of the failure by socialism and the total lack of insight on their part. Cause and effect

[Lore]

It was actually those Euro capitalists fault for lending it to them. It's really no different then the banking mortgage debacle here in the U.S.

[Outcast_Searcher]

It was actually those Euro capitalists fault for lending it to them. It's really no different then the banking mortgage debacle here in the U.S.

Yes, it was the bankers' fault for all the liar loans by those wanting mortgages. It must be nice to live in a fantasy world where no personal responsibility exists.

[Lore]

It was actually those Euro capitalists fault for lending it to them. It's really no different then the banking mortgage debacle here in the U.S.

Yes, it was the bankers' fault for all the liar loans by those wanting mortgages. It must be nice to live in a fantasy world where no personal responsibility exists.

Yes, because they followed corrupt standards. Other than pure greed there is no reason to loan individuals, let alone countries, money without assuring their ability to pay it back.

[StarvingLion]

"Germany is doing quite well for itself"

Hahaha...planting trees and putting up giant windmills is not the answer.